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Thread: can you make priming compound?

  1. #121
    Boolit Master

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    Desertbuck,

    It sure is enjoyable when a new mix goes pop when you try it, isn't it? I think you picked the best mix to try first.

    With the WW1 mix I think that a dry mix is fine and would be my first choice as one can just fill the cup and pack it. But I haven't tested it dry-vs-wet with a chronograph or pressure tester.

  2. #122
    Boolit Master

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    I worked on making a simple non-corrosive(ammonium permanganate) this past weekend. I have to get a better yield before I'm going to consider this a viable option. At this point I'm not sure why the yield was so low, but I'm going to spend a little more time on it. I'm not yet sure it will work for Boxers.

  3. #123
    Boolit Bub Malgus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    If there's any interest I can burn up a batch of CD of this:

    $15 delivered U.S. only. Sold a bunch of these in this forum in 2008.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...rt-amp-Oelberg
    Very interested in a copy. Ok to PM?

    Mal
    "You can't stop the signal, Mal."

    "I aim to misbehave." - Malcom Reynolds, Captain of the Serenity.

  4. #124
    Boolit Master

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    I am also interested in a copy of this CD.
    I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.

    Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.

  5. #125
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malgus View Post
    Very interested in a copy. Ok to PM?

    Mal
    I don't read this thread religiously. A PM or email is fine. swede1894@gmail.com

    Fact is you can go straight to Paypal for this Primer CD. $15 delivered. My Paypal acct: swede1894@gmail.com

    Make sure to include your address and note that its for the Primer CD.

    thanks!

    I'm out of blank CD but I'll get some more tomorrow.


    Dutch

  6. #126
    Boolit Buddy Desertbuck's Avatar
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    Hay everyone. Sorry I have not been posting I have been real busy with work. But I did have some time to test my primers last week. I used my good old 91/30 in 7.62X54r. To keep the pressure on the low side I loaded 9 cases with HODGDON Triple Seven black powder substitute which I have been having some success with with a PP boolit in my 91/30. One was loaded with APP black powder substitute the most worthless BP sub I have ran into so I'm trying to fined a good use for it.
    The primers worked GRATE! I now have a good feel for doing this and it is a lot of FUN to do I think I packed around 40 more primers this morning and they are now siting in my work room drying. I have been using my wife's hair spray to glue the priming mixture in the cup. I also want to share that I found an easy way to put a paper disk in the cup like the factory has in there's. A paper puncher makes nice little paper disks that fit nicely in the cup with room for the anvil. Some time shortly I hope I can get some pictures up for everyone.
    I want to thank perotter for all his help and good tip's
    I also want to thank Dutchman for the primer book CD It has helped me alot.
    THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS
    Ps now I feel safe to say even IF primers and powder are no longer available I will still be able to enjoy my hobby it will just be a little smokier.
    Last edited by Desertbuck; 05-16-2013 at 06:34 PM. Reason: %#@$ smart phone
    THE GUN
    The gun has been praised.
    The gun has been denounced.
    The gun has played a critical role in History.
    The gun has been implemented for good.
    The gun has been abused for evil.
    With the gun comes a great moral responsibility!
    To better understand the gun is to better under stand History. And with the gun protect your future.
    D.B

  7. #127
    Boolit Mold
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    Get it while it's hot!

    Quote Originally Posted by perotter View Post
    Almost forget. Get the book "Ammunition Making" by G. Frost. It was a NRA published book. It is out of print and copies are somewhat expensive. The last one I saw was $250( glad I bought 2 for $15 each in the 90's). But, there are online versions to download around. This book will give you the details of how to make what we buy now. A very well written book that is easy to understand.

    It covers everything that one would need to know to run a commercial ammo factory. Like making cases, primer cups, primer anvils, shotgun shell cases, etc. It doesn't cover making powder or picking powder and only says to leave that to the powder companies. It was written to be the general tech manual for the ammo factory in the Philippines, whose name escapes me right now.
    I found a PDF of the "Ammunition Making" book at the site below available for free download.

    I received my copy of "Primers for Small Arms Cartridges" yesterday (thanks Dutchman!). In that book there is a mention of a volume 2 - does anyone have a copy of this "volume 2"?

    http://filepost.com/files/bae78835/A...on_Making.pdf/ (link tested good 5/16/13)

    Thanks,

    Dr. X
    Last edited by DoctorX; 05-17-2013 at 08:56 AM. Reason: added note

  8. #128
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desertbuck View Post
    Hay everyone. Sorry I have not been posting I have been real busy with work. But I did have some time to test my primers last week. I used my good old 91/30 in 7.62X54r. To keep the pressure on the low side I loaded 9 cases with HODGDON Triple Seven black powder substitute which I have been having some success with with a PP boolit in my 91/30. One was loaded with APP black powder substitute the most worthless BP sub I have ran into so I'm trying to fined a good use for it.
    The primers worked GRATE! I now have a good feel for doing this and it is a lot of FUN to do I think I packed around 40 more primers this morning and they are now siting in my work room drying. I have been using my wife's hair spray to glue the priming mixture in the cup. I also want to share that I found an easy way to put a paper disk in the cup like the factory has in there's. A paper puncher makes nice little paper disks that fit nicely in the cup with room for the anvil. Some time shortly I hope I can get some pictures up for everyone.
    I want to thank perotter for all his help and good tip's
    I also want to thank Dutchman for the primer book CD It has helped me alot.
    THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS
    Ps now I feel safe to say even IF primers and powder are no longer available I will still be able to enjoy my hobby it will just be a little smokier.
    Your welcome. I'm glad that what I've tried is useful to someone else. Thanks for posting the results of your work. I too like the peace of mind that I can go to the target range no matter what the store bought supply situation is.

    FWIW, I'm sure that you saw the DIY smokeless powders in the A&O book that the Dutchman sells. I never got around to the paper one, but the other one does seem to work ok. But, most of it I added a burn rate cat to increase the burn rate. But, this is really off topic of primers.

  9. #129
    Boolit Master

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    DoctorX,

    Thanks for posting that link. I looked for an online version when I posted about it, but couldn't find one. I have run across people who said they have a copy of Vol 2, but for whatever reason they never showed it to me and/or scanned it into a computer.

  10. #130
    Boolit Master
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    Perhaps we need a DIY smokeless powder thread?

  11. #131
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    Dr. X of salute fame, "he who rocks the bleachers" @ PGI?

    Oreo, a review of smokeless powder manufacture at a WWII level of technology is to be found in Tenney Davis' "Chemistry of Powder and Explosives" available for free download here:

    http://www.sciencemadness.org/librar...explosives.pdf

    Pages 287 through 328.

    Like a lot of other industrial chemistry, it doesn't really lend itself well to small batch processes in an amateur lab. You could almost certainly MAKE a smokeless propellant. But characterizing it well enough to use for reloading without losing guns/body parts? Unlikely with the experience, equipment and lab skill levels implied by the rest of this thread.

    Not disparaging the members, I'd be scared to death to try it and I have synthesized or handled most of the chemicals involved in modern primer and propellant manufacture.
    Last edited by Bert2368; 05-21-2013 at 02:36 AM.
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  12. #132
    Boolit Master

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    The Afghan tribesmen and the Viet Cong made smokeless powder with less equipment and lab skills than most forum member have.

  13. #133
    Boolit Master
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    I think its something we need to begin looking at closer. We thought primers were out of reach at first too but here we are a few people have shown it is very possible even if not yet refined in process. Build the ark before the storm.
    Last edited by Oreo; 05-21-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  14. #134
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perotter View Post
    The Afghan tribesmen and the Viet Cong made smokeless powder with less equipment and lab skills than most forum member have.
    I would VERY much like to see a source attributed for that, and know if they actually made propellant from scratch. The Filipino WWII resistance re-purposed mining explosives as propellant, but we don't have old cases of ammonia dynamite laying around...
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  15. #135
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert2368 View Post
    , but we don't have old cases of ammonia dynamite laying around...
    But we do have Kmart, Walmart,supermarkets, etc. No need for old when you can get new.

  16. #136
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perotter View Post
    But we do have Kmart, Walmart,supermarkets, etc. No need for old when you can get new.

    I am aware of what may be done with re-purposing commonly available materials.

    Could you provide me with some concrete information on the Viet Cong or Afghani manufacture of reloading propellants you mentioned? Both countries were long term war zones with much UXO laying about, along with plentiful opportunities to acquire new ammo from neighboring countries- or the leavings by the opfor. Taking the time and effort to scratch make nitrocellulose/nitroglycerin and manufacture reloading propellants under those conditions seems needless.

    Maybe this belongs in a whole new thread on improvised propellants, if someone cares to kick one off?

    For the original topic, this may be of interest...

    DON'T try this at home. An acceptable level of safety requires proper safety gear and a fume hood to work in along with practical knowledge of lab procedures and handling primary explosives. Toxic gasses, poisonous byproducts, dangerous, toxic, corrosive or flammable ingredients and a REALLY hazardous, takes your hand off kind of end product.

    Under Federal law in the USA an unlicensed person can still do this legaly for their own use. But they can't store it improperly, distribute it to others or move it over a public road. As far as state and local laws are concerned, most municipalities and quite a few states would have a cow if they found you doing something like this.

    Try dropping a pinch of starch , paraformaldehyde , or sodium nitrite into the reaction mixture to start the reaction.
    5.4 g of red mercury oxide (HgO) was dissolved in 50 ml of room temperature 70% HNO3 in a 500 ml beaker, resulting in a clear solution with no visible fuming and only a mild warming.

    50 ml of denatured ethanol was measured out, 25 ml of which was quickly added to the Mercury nitrate solution. After about 5 minutes, no visible reaction was noted. At this time, .25 g of Sodium nitrite (NaNo2) was added to the beaker. A mild effervescence and a change of the solution to a slightly yellowish color was noted after a few moments. The effervescence accelerated, with self heating and development of heavy white fumes. When the reaction seemed in need of moderation to prevent bubbling over, the remaining 25 ml of alcohol was added to the mix in several small portions. An additional 20 ml of alcohol was also added for purposes of reaction moderation after the initial 50 ml was expended, bringing the total to 70 ml.

    About 30 minutes after the onset of effervescence, the reaction had subsided and a considerable amount of a light grayish precipitate had settled out. The contents of the beaker was added to about 200 ml of distilled water and the solids filtered out in a Buchner funnel. The retained solids were washed with several portions of water and then given a final wash with alcohol.

    The first obtained solids weighed 5.1 g after drying, and were of a yellowish/grayish color and needle like crystal shape.
    These solids were dissolved in 80 ml of 30% ammonia and the liquid filtered. The filtered liquid was carefully neutralized with glacial acetic acid, the resulting precipitate filtered out, washed with water and then alcohol and dried. The precipitate weighed 3.65 g after drying and was a dense sparkly white powder similar in appearance to fine table sugar consisting of small crystals, quite different in shape from the crystals of the initial product.

    The product displayed the characteristics of mercury fulminate, deflagrating in small quantities in the open and detonating violently in larger quantities or if confined. The entire remaining batch was mixed in 80:20 ratio with Potassium chlorate and detonated, as dry storage seemed inadvisable and no use was anticipated for a primary explosive... "It made a jolly bang"
    Just for referance, here is a link to download some litterature on Lead styphnate production methods and parameters for small arms primers.

    http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/f...8392&aid=15556

    Once again, DON'T try this at home.
    Last edited by Bert2368; 05-22-2013 at 05:45 PM.
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  17. #137
    Boolit Master

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    For making lead styphnate get G. Frost's book. He was one of guy's who helped perfect it for production by Winchester/Western. He goes into every detail. Including how to tell if the batch is suitable for primers or needs to be destroyed.

  18. #138
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    For making lead styphnate get G. Frost's book.
    Title? Author's full name?

    Personally, I'm fond of Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, but it is much more about synthesis than process engineering required for proper particle sizes and other details you really need to know for consistent effect.

    Available here:

    http://library.sciencemadness.org/li...explosives.pdf
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  19. #139
    Boolit Master

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    See post #127 for were to download G. Frost's book.

    The Tenney Davis book is a must have, but is somewhat dated as it was written a long time ago. He never gets into real good non-corrosive primers. Seems that anything that Dr. Kubota has written is worth reading.

    The "Poor Man's Primer Manual" by George Dmitrierff is a must have for anyone who has an interest in primers. He details the tooling and equipment needed to make small test or personal batches and to setting up production for 1000 per minute.

    Also any thing French patent is worth reading. They seem to march to different drummer than then the rest of the world. For example, seems they never did go with the German non-corrosive primer mix like the rest of the world.

  20. #140
    Boolit Buddy Desertbuck's Avatar
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    OK guys here are the pictures I promised
    This is the stuff you will need. At least for how I do it. The chemicals are in order if the pictures Potassium chlorate, Sulfur, Antimony, and sodium bicarbonate
    Attachment 71448Attachment 71449Attachment 71450Attachment 71451Attachment 71452Attachment 71453Attachment 71454Attachment 71455Attachment 71456
    THE GUN
    The gun has been praised.
    The gun has been denounced.
    The gun has played a critical role in History.
    The gun has been implemented for good.
    The gun has been abused for evil.
    With the gun comes a great moral responsibility!
    To better understand the gun is to better under stand History. And with the gun protect your future.
    D.B

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check