can you make priming compound?

[perotter]

@perotter, Using one of the Eley Prime processes sounds like a great idea. I don't have the chemicals to make them, but they are on my future buy list. The cheapest source of Pb(NO3)2 that I have found is Elemental Scientific. If you know of a better supplier let me know. I'll also need some sodium hypophosphite solution from an electroless nickel plating kit, but it was kind of pricy the last time I checked. Looks like it Google search time again.

The Google search engine isn't the best one for chemical searches. In addition to Google try a couple of the other ones.

[bannor]

my reasoning is that I don't want to blow off some fingers, as has happened with people making more than 1/8 oz or so of this sort of thing at a time (and not using gloves, behind a wall of sandbags).

[bannor]

8c sounds steep. You must be buying powder by the lb and primers by the 100 rd box. or paying for pure lead/tin. I know that quantity buying is not feasible for now, but when you get the chance, take a look at how much cheaper powder is by the 15 lb keg, and primers by the 100,000. as in half price, guys. When you KNOW that you're going to use it, why not save the money and buy plenty (and not worry about shortages)?

[perotter]

my reasoning is that I don't want to blow off some fingers, as has happened with people making more than 1/8 oz or so of this sort of thing at a time (and not using gloves, behind a wall of sandbags).

I almost always use a wet mix. I've never been able to get a chlorate based mix to go off until it has dried out.

[perotter]

@Marshall At some point this weekend I'm going to look for a book I have about making lead nitrate. Over the years I'd read that lead nitrate is the only nitrate that can be made with just lead and ammonia, but had never seen how it was done. Last winter when looking thru an old chemistry book I came across how to do so. The equipment needed would be in most homes. No Apparently it didn't nor doesn't have a commercial application, but for amounts we use it may be of use. When I find it, I'll pm you the information so you can ponder if it might be worth trying.

[Bert2368]

Could someone post links to the Eley prime type mixture formulations? I don't think I've seen those yet.

Aluminum flake powder via ball milling with large ball bearings takes a while and is hideously noisy, but it is possible- I have made ball mill jars from PVC pipe sections , with a glued on cap on one end and a reducer fitting with a rubber cap/worm drive clamp on the other end. I have screwed and glued "lifter bars" to the inside of the such mill jars, using countersunk screws from the outside of jar and a 2 part plastic welding glue sold in a double barrel syringe- I'll try to find one and post a picture, I started abuseing/re-purposeing my Sears & Roebuck "hobby rock polisher kit" a LONG time ago... Be aware that many pyrotechnic formulations call for SPHERICAL Aluminum, particle shapes (widely differing surface areas!) can matter a great deal in performance of pyrotechnic mixtures!

Lead salts thread:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/v...d.php?tid=5490

[nicholst55]

I put that out there because, for reasons all there own, some people don't like to buy primer chemicals online or mail order. The pryo houses have atomized aluminum for about 1/4 of what Brownells sells it for.

Yes, I see now where that's the case. I got to thinking afterwards that buying atomized aluminum from Brownells would doubtless yield a supply for several lifetimes!

[Bert2368]

Thanks-

I had found similar patent info with Sodium azide/Lead nitrate, producing Sodium nitrate as an additional oxidizer in the reacted prime mix. My personal experience with Sodium nitrate and humidity would not make that one my first choice-

[Bert2368]

Smile when you say that, pilgrim.

In my experience, question isn't if you can make it at all . Question is, can you make it so it's reliable, ballistically uniform, and storage stable... And in a way that you would survive regular handling without any "incidents".

[perotter]

@perotter,

I did some checking and lead nitrate can be made from copper nitrate and lead metal. The copper nitrate itself can be easily made from copper sulfate and potassium nitrate which are readily available from retail stores if you know what to ask for (hint: pond algae and stumps). In addition, lead nitrate is easily made directly from lead and nitric acid. I decided to just buy the lead nitrate directly for ~$20/lb from Elemental Scientific. As things stand, I am probably already on the DHS watch list from my previous primer chemical purchases, so I've stopped caring.

.....

The method I was looking for was making with just ammonia and lead, without any nitrate or acid. The book I thought it was in wasn't the one. I'll have to keep hunting for it, but it looks like it will take a while.

I have a fair amount of lead nitrate that I bought a few years ago. Enough that I use it increase the mass burn rate of ammonpulver.

[perotter]

...

Question is, can you make it so it's reliable, ballistically uniform, and storage stable...

IMO, it being ballistically uniform at the same level as what we buy is the hardest for safe DIY.

[McMauser]

The reading of 15 pages of how to and/or how to not make primers has been quite educational for me and before I continue I would like to thank everyone for their experiences, knowledge of chemistry, experiments, recommendations and especially safety concerns.

My interest in self made priming mixture surfaced for at least two reasons; one being the scarcity of Berdan primers in the US, the other being the need to prime large bore rim fire cartridges.



I have thought about using the toy cap and match head method, but thought that this approach would be extra corrosive and erosive besides having to deal with the politically correct issues with the two products.



Long ago I read Hatcher's Notebook including priming mixtures and concluded that priming mixtures are dangerous to produce. I was excited when I learned about the safer to use Eley priming process, and finally came across some of the formulas.



I have several basic questions. One being, what should I pursue, the Eley prime, a Frankford Arsenal type or other. What I gathered so far is that
potassium chlorate primers are reliable, dangerous to make if not done in small batches and using the wet method. As for Eley prime, I haven't read about chemical availability for home brewers.

If I have to use the match head tip method, what sort of solvent would be best, water or alcohol? I have thought of using shotgun primers, dismount the priming mixture from the cups and use a solvent to dislodge the mixture and transplant into the rim fire shells or Berdan type cups. Here again without experimentation I would like know what type of solvent to use.

[Janoosh]

Shotgun primers are basically berdan primers. Just take a fired shotgun primer apart...primer cup, separate anvil, separate base....

[AlaskanGuy]

http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...C,%202008).pdfI would like to suggest reading and downloading this for reference.... It is the book titled Chemical Analysis of firearms, am munitions and gun residue...

it has the recipe for most of the historic priming compounds....

AG

[McMauser]

Marshall,

Thanks for your input. The Eleyprime sounds great, but the chemistry is way beyond my capabilities. I think the Frankford Arsenal formulas would be workable for me. I think I will reread the data presented above in the 15 pages plus other references and come up with some guide lines, have the info commented on then make up my own procedure specification.

McMauser

@McMauser,

I don't recommend digging around in commercial primers. However, the primer mixture was originally deposited into the cup as a paste made with water and then dried. If you can get the material completely wet (may be harder than you think) you could probably remove the primer compound for use in other cups. To me it sounds like more trouble than it is worth. I certainly wouldn't destroy perfectly good primers to use in other primers.

Regarding Eley Prime mixtures, if you have found the formulations and are knowledgeable in chemistry you know that some of the components cannot be bought but must be synthesized. Finding the needed starting materials is not easy (or cheap), and you still must do some wet chemistry. The Eley Prime process is safer than working with pre-made primer compound, but if it was easy to execute we would already be using it in this thread.

Don't shortchange the Frankford Arsenal formulas as they have been well proven in millions of military rounds. Other than their corrosive nature, they work just as well today as they did 100 years ago. Myself and several others in this thread have safely made primers using these primer compounds. Just this morning I made 15 SP boxer primers in about 15 minutes with H-48 compound. The best thing about these formulations is that the starting materials are easily and cheaply available on the Internet or can be made from common household chemicals (like bleach and salt substitute). This is valuable information you need to know for an uncertain future.

[nhrifle]

I came across this site today, lots of good information

http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/styphnic.htm

[Bert2368]

I would advise doing your own (careful!) research before home synthesizing Lead styphnate. Along with being shock & friction sensitive, it is one of the more static sensitive primary explosives.

Educate yourself about ESD and energetic materials handling before you go there, Learn how to make up a "stock solution" of Magnesium styphnate, and restrict quantities of dry Lead styphnate on hand to a gram or less. It is not a happy pleasant substance for blithe beginner explosive chemists.

See p. 440-

http://docs6.chomikuj.pl/1154274417,...y-L.-Davis.pdf

[Bert2368]

If you grind a nitrite, Barium nitrate, Aluminum powder, Antimony sulfide and an organic fuel, you might well have a problem! This is FLASH POWDER. Please cominuate the 2 oxidizers SEPARATELY from the rest of the mix...

It is common practice to add a very small % of a weak acid to any wet processed mixture containing Aluminum powder and a nitrate/nitrite oxidizer. The oxide coating of the Aluminum is attacked strongly under basic conditions, and a nitrate wet and in contact with Aluminum can generate AMMONIA- So the weak acid protects your Aluminum powder. Often, an additional 1% or so of Boric acid is milled with the oxidizer for this purpose in pyrotechnic manufacture.

More as I have time to think about the rest of the proposed process.

[Oreo]

99.9% boric acid is just ant/roach powder found in the pesticide section of your local Lowes or Home Depot. I use it frequently, it does a good job controlling ants.

[Oreo]

Got a vacuum pump?