can you make priming compound?

[Bert2368]

I have not seen anything related to priming compositions, but:

Iron 2 sulfide, FeS is pyrophoric- If you grind it finely enough, it will spontaneously catch fire!*I would prefer NOT to be the one mixing this into a batch of primer composition.*It's also one of those "indeterminate" compounds, the ratio of Iron to Sulfur in a batch is variable.

Iron disulfide, FeS2 is better known as Iron pyrite- Fool's Gold. It DOES have a history in firearms ignition- As the "flint" used in wheel lock firearms... It definitely does burn.

In mines where Pyrite is exposed to air, modern miners usually dust the mineral's surface regularly with ground limestone to prevent spontaneous combustion.

Iron pyrite in contact with air continuously decomposes into Iron and sulfate, there is a common bacteria that causes this.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidithiobacillus

The sulfate combines with any moisture (humidity!) to make sulfuric acid. Sulfuric or sulfurous acids DECOMPOSE CHLORATE.

Before the Lead chamber process, most sulfuric acid was made by leaving heaps of Iron pyrite out in the weather and collecting & concentrating the rainwater running off the heaps- So it's not a good choice with chlorate if you need your primers to be storage stable.

Isn't chemistry fun?

[wicket]

Chemistry is indeed fun Bert. Back in the day making iron sulfide was one of the of the experiments in the manual that came with Gilbert chemistry sets, i remember being annoyed because Gilbert failed to mention that making the stuff cost you a test tube. Was entertaining making hydrogen sulfide from the iron sulfide though. The need for buffering the sulfur in chlorate mixtures already had my ears up, doesn't sound like iron sulfide improves matters, thanks for your input.

[wch]

Yes, you can make priming compound.
Now, can you grow new fingers and/or eyes?

[wicket]

Hopefully i won't need to wch, but thanks for the timely warning!

[ofitg]

Wicket, if you don't want to mail-order antimony sulfide, it occurs naturally as a mineral called Stibnite.

You can do it the "old fashioned way" by getting a good Stibnite crystal from a rock shop (or eBay) and pulverizing it yourself.

[Bert2368]

Yes, you can make priming compound.
Now, can you grow new fingers and/or eyes?

I'm more worried about hands. Pshaw, fingers? Hell, you start with 10, who's gonna miss a couple?

Explosives handler for 20+ years. Federal license to manufacture explosives for the last 12 years... All fingers & eyes in place. Possibly because I DON'T make priming compounds. I do answer safety related questions from others about the chemistry though.

I have "hands on" experience with lab scale synthesis of primary explosives used in some of the modern mixtures. And production batch sized experience with chlorate based pyrotechnic mixtures.

What is done to make reliable chlorate primer compositions is just about the perfect opposite of what is done to make a safe to handle chlorate fireworks star mixture- Sulfer. Sulfides. Thiocyanates. Ground glass/grit. I would need a REALLY strong reason to handle this type of mix, and even then it would be in very small quantities.

The single compound primaries are an interesting and very mixed bag as far as sensitivity and handling dangers when considered as individual chemicals, but they've got the same range of properties (SENSITIVE!) in their final condition as dry priming mixes, they have got to respond to the same stimuli.

I do like the several methods such as Ely prime patent method and the French method where the final reaction takes place only after loading. How I would do it if I HAD TO.

[wicket]

Well gentlemen, it's like this: home-made caps are pretty much the final challenge to the self-sufficient black powder shooter, so i figured to take a run at them. Beyond making a couple of the more common fulminates years ago, i'm a babe in the woods regarding initiators. I have half an old bottle of Merck KClO3 kicking around, so figured to work from that. With the level of data mining going on out there in the real world and my own native paranoia, i'd just as soon try to do this with as little fanfare as possible given the joyless smothering embrace of the nanny state.

[Bert2368]

Well gentlemen, it's like this: home-made caps are pretty much the final challenge to the self-sufficient black powder shooter, so i figured to take a run at them.

I understand completely-

Considering you should get around ?15-20? caps per gram of composition, you don't HAVE to work with quantities that will kill you. A couple of grams of a chlorate/Sulfer/Antimony tri sulfide composition not enclosed in a caseing isn't. Yes, eyes are at risk. If you add Mercury fulminate to the mix, it's snappy enough so fingers definitely are at risk, even with the mixture uncontained. An 80:20 mix of fulminate:chlorate was pretty standard blasting cap filler for a while before WWI.

Wear eye protection, keep amounts handled to a minimum, study carefully the historical information and safety literature. I don't choose to do this, but I'm certain you wouldn't want to do some things I routinely do either!

[wicket]

Well Bert, i just took a crack at Forsythe's original mixture, and getting my Ohaus to weigh to .01 g is gonna involve potentially interesting levels of Kentucky windage. I used up all my store-bought HNO3 years ago, so fulminates are off the table, unless i get ambitious enough to make some acid. I probably don't need anything too snappy anyway, i use NC combustible cartridges and it doesn't take much to spark them to life.
What's aggravating me at this point is finding a substitute for the antimony sulfide, and figuring out a way to get what's probably 10% bentonite out of my sulfur since i don't have much more than a couple ounces of USP sublimed sulfur left. What's the story on tin sulfide as a substitute?

[perotter]

Also, for 2 reasons, use a wet mix to make primer. It's much safer and if a little binder is added, they are more consistent when used.

For using tin sulfide use the amount is about the same as antimony sulfide. I don't have much information on it's use and as far as I know only the French test or have used it.

[perotter]

Yes, you can make priming compound.
Now, can you grow new fingers and/or eyes?

Indeed making primer compound isn't for every reload there is. Only those who can see the whole picture, plan well, etc.

[perotter]

...... but I'm certain you wouldn't want to do some things I routinely do either!

Having an idea as to what you do, there is no way I'd want to do it. It would have to be a real emergency. I had a cousin who was a professional(licenses, insurance, etc) in your line of work. I didn't like to be around when he was working. It was interesting, but I preferred more of a lecture on the topic than a how to demo.

[Bert2368]

Skylighter or Firefox have antimony tri sulfide and good quality (low acid) rubber maker's Sulfur.
http://www.skylighter.com/mall/chemicals.asp

http://www.firefox-fx.com/chemicals.htm

The 200 mesh "Chinese needle" Antimony tri sulfide is just ground Stibnite ore. I'm fairly sure the 325 mesh is the same material after being milled.

Garden store Sulfur with 10% anti cake is soluble in hot Toluene... And re- crystallizes when the Toluene cools to room temperature. If you're willing to filter a hot Toluene solution, this separation isn't too tough.
http://woelen.homescience.net/scienc...ene/index.html

(edit) oops, wrong horribly smelly flammable solvent!

[wicket]

Hot toluene's the solvent, but there's some debate about what's actually in paint store toluene these days, basement chemistry was a lot more fun before all the chemophobes got loose from their canvas jackets. Thanks for the suggestion though Bert, I'll try the solvent method with whatever Ace Hardware is selling and see how it goes.
Copy/pasted this from a chemistry forum : "Iron Sulfide might be a better substitution if you have no Antimony Trisulfide, prepare some by igniting Iron powder and Sulfur (about 56:32) in a crucible. It has about double the melting point which will make it less effective, Bismuth Trisulfide might be worth a try instead (81:19), or simply get elemental Antimony and prepare the Trisulfide from that (72:28). Using excess sulfur (e.g. 50:50 mixes) in these preparations and burning it off (outside!) is an simple and expedient production method." Not the reference i was looking for, but it's hopeful.

[Bert2368]

Sorry about misremembering the solvent there. You CAN distill the **** sold at the paint store and just use the fraction coming over at the right temperature range- but we're getting further and further into the weeds here.

I've SMELTED Antimony tri sulfide into Antimony metal by roasting! (Antimony regulus, ask an old time printer or foundry hand) Never tried to MAKE the tri sulfide... The stuff comes out of the ground ready to use, sort Stibnite from the surrounding rock, crush and mill it to the right size.

I am totally spoiled. Just buying the chemicals ready to go leaves you a lot more time to use them.

I've not seen the Tin sulfide version of these primes. Bismuth sulfide? I've never even seen any. We use Bismuth trioxide for a few things.

Just in case anyone has some DO NOT USE ARSENIC SULFIDES. They make things too sensitive to handle when dry, think about those little pull string booby trap novelty fireworks.

[wicket]

Interesting about the arsenic sulfide Bert, wish i knew more chemistry, be nice to understand the subtleties involving various metallic sulfides as additions to the mixture under discussion. I'll try the sulfides of iron and tin since i have the precursors, and then drop metallic sulfides. Perotter, i will work wet once i get a promising formula, even with a face shield and gloves i'm not too keen on messing with much more than a gram of this stuff at a time; i need to keep my oculars and appendages functioning to deal with machining some sort of die to stamp the copper into caps.
The experiment with Forsythe's original mixture was unimpressive. With and without ground glass it declined to respond to either friction or impact. Ignited with a flame it fizzed lazily like poorly made gunpowder, and left behind a residue of slag that would have clogged a fire hose, i doubt firing it in confinement would have improved matters significantly.

[Oreo]

I don't understand the effort to find antimony trisulfide substitutes when the real stuff is easy to find.

I sure wish phosphorus was easier to come by though. All this chemistry stuff would be a non-issue and non-corrosive primer mix would be easy to make.

[wicket]

Given the limited uses for antimony sulfide, i don't like raising my hand with an online purchase. Second point is that i can buy caps locally, same way i can buy powder, ball, and wads, but was curious how far i could push the envelope of self-sufficiency.
Even when i was a kid white phosphorus was tough to get, red you could find, but tweekers closed that door; probably saving some folks from the repercussions of playing around with Armstrong's mixture.
I agree that looking for substitutes or manufacturing necessary chemicals can be a pain in the neck Oreo, it's like being twelve again and lying to the pharmacist to buy KNO3, but it's a fact of life these days.

[Bert2368]

(EDIT)

It's not an oversite that VERY dangerous to handle, insanely sensitive mixtures are given in these posts and links. The information is out there in many other places already. If you are foolish enough to make them, you WILL have an unintended ignition or explosion, the only question is when and how much it will cost you. Pee on the electric fence for yourself if you must-

------------------------------------

Let's COMPLETELY avoid the red Phosphorus/chlorate family of Armstron's mix and related... and the Arsenic sulfide/chlorate family of red explosive and relatives...

As far as things that are just too **** sensitive when mixed with chlorates, which I won't make and strongly recommend YOU all avoid:

Anything in here:

http://www.privatedata.com/byb/pyro/...recrackers.pdf

And EVERYTHING in here:

Armstrong's deadly brew — My original article


Donald J Haarmann aka The WiZ
American Fireworks News #51 December 1985

A letter of some months past detailing a reader's experiences with nitrogen tri-iodide,
has occasioned this missive on its potentially lethal cousin, Armstrong's mixture.

Dear WiZ,

"Quite some years ago (30?) I happened upon the following in the Popular Science
Book of Formulas: Recipes, Methods & Secret Processes. (1932) 'A sensitive
detonating mixture is made of potassium chlorate 10 parts, black antimony sulphide 5
parts and red phosphorus 1 part. Mix without friction and at some distance from the
operator's face. It is quite sensitive to blows, very unlike [?] the potassium chlorate
sulphur mixture.'

"In those bygone days it was easy to obtain chemicals either from the local druggist
(who was probably amazed at the amount of potassium nitrate my mother required for
"preserving meat") or any chemical supply house. One local chemical supply house
would even give me a discount for being a student. Therefore, obtaining the required
reagents was not difficult.

"I started out by putting the mixture in 0000 gelatin capsules. Just throwing them up into
the air was sufficient to cause detonation upon impact with the ground.

"One day a friend and I loaded quite a large amount into a cardboard tube that BB's
come in. We backed off quite a bit and fired upon it with a Daisy pump action BB gun.
The second or third pellet found the mark, resulting in a tremendous blast which rocked
us back on our heels and caused the propane gas tanks next to the house to ring as
though they had been struck by a hammer!

"This progressed to placing the material into a (you don't want to know). Threw one off
the roof of my friend's apartment house one night toward the vacant lot directly behind.
However, its errant trajectory caused it to land/detonate on the fire escape of an
adjacent building! Scared the S- out of someone who was peacefully watching TV with
the window open.

"For the ultimate and final folly, had taken to adding magnesium to increase sensitivity!
(Bet the second thing you did with your Chem Craft chemistry set was to find all the fun
things you could do with Magnesium!) At that time our families both had country homes
to which we adjoined each summer. In the surrounding woods my friend and I had
constructed a small shack. On this fateful day while seated on the ground at the back,
my friend was seated on a stone wall directly in front mixing, when KABOOM!
WHAT A BLAST!!! The smoke blew away, and HE WAS GONE!!!! GOOD GRIEF, what
am I going to tell his mother???? He blew himself up and I can't even find the pieces?!?!

I am happy to report my grief was short lived, for these few seconds of no little anguish
were relieved by a plaintive cry of' Pssst -- Pssst I'm over here, coming from some
yards away. For as luck would have it, we (he) were using a cardboard container, and
"all" that happened was the bottom blew out, resulting in numerous small holes in his
blue jeans from the unreacted phosphorus, and a not little-bit sore, blackened hand.
There is, in retrospect, no doubt in my mind that had mixing been completed and the
whole batch detonated, he would not have been able to play the piano. Regards,"

Name withheld under pain of having flaming arrows being sent in the WiZ's direction
while he is making flash and report.

Yes, indeed. I would add the following quote from the American Pyrotechnist for March
1978. "[a PGI member] dry mixed about a teaspoon of potassium chlorate and [red]
phosphorous, put it in a plastic 35mm film container, and it ignited or exploded violently
just from the slight friction of snapping the cap on! He says that he has learned his
lesson, but the injuries to both hands were so disabling that he will not be able to
correspond with other members for about 2 months."

Some time ago an outfit called Howell Laboratories, Folly Beach, SC, sold through an
advertisement in the Shotgun News information on a "frictional impact explosive"

The information turned out to be 5 small photo reproduced pages on the compounding
of Armstrong's mixture, for use in "Security Bombs" (booby traps), "Smoke Screen"
(combined with ammonium chloride), "Impact Grenades" (gelatin capsules), "Explosive
Rodent Traps" ("It let's you know when a mouse or rat has been caught."), and "Impact
Detonator”, and "Explosive Paint" ("This explosive paint lends itself well to practical
jokes.") [Sure!] One half pages were devoted to safety in compounding, with the
admonishment that "A pencil eraser sized piece will put the loudest fire cracker to
shame, while a thimble full will rival a stick of dynamite." Perhaps somewhat over
stated, but not by much.

An accident involving a substantial amount of Armstrong's mixture was reported in
Explosives and Their Power. Translated and Condensed from the French of M.
Berthelot. London 1892.

"The explosion which occurred in Paris, in the Rue Beranger, on May 14, 1878, may
also be mentioned, in a store containing amorces [caps] intended for children's toys.
These amorces were composed as follows:

One kind, called single, of a mixture of potassium chlorate (12 parts), amorphous [red]
phosphorus (6 parts), lead oxide (12 parts), and resin (1 part); the others, called double,
consisted of a mixture of potassium chlorate (9 parts), amorphous phosphorus (1 part),
antimony sulphide (1 part), flowers of sulphur (0.25 part), and nitre (0.25 part). The
latter, more sensitive to friction, averaged 0.01 grm. in weight. From six to eight millions
of these amorces pasted on paper slips, in lots of five each, were piled up in the
warehouse in boxes. A few of these having become ignited by an accident, the origin of
which was never clearly ascertained, caused the whole to explode. One building
suddenly gave way, the facade being blown out, and the stonework hurled some
distance. One stone, measuring a cubic metre, was thrown to a distance of fifty
two meters. A great part of the adjoining building was also destroyed, fourteen persons
were killed on the spot, and sixteen received injuries.

"These terrible effects are explained when we consider that the weight of the entire
explosive matter contained in the amorces amounted to about 64 kgms., and that its
force, owing to the composition of this matter, was equal to a force of 226 kgms. of
black powder. (These facts have been taken from the report presented by the
Committee of Inquiry.)

"It is essential that persons having explosive substances under their charge should
never lose sight of the conviction that, from the facts and general truths which have just
been stated, preventive measures should always be prescribed on the hypothesis of an
explosion." [Amen.]

I hope that these experiences point up the folly of working with combinations such as
Armstrong's mixture, its cousin the red explosive mixture, and other less than safe and
sane mixtures, i.e. potassium chlorate and sulphur, or potassium chlorate and antimony
sulphide, which, by by, was used during the civil war in land mines! Further, although
Armstrong's mixture and the "red explosive" can be compounded "safely" when
wettedwhat are you going to do with them when they have dried out??

Although the word "detonation" is commonly used in connection with pyrotechnics, the
only comp that has been tested and found to produce true detonation is potassium
chlorate and sulphur. However, it is my firm belief that if Armstrong's mixture were to be
tested, it too would be found capable of detonating.

Other than toy caps and such, the only modern use for Armstrong's mixture I have been
able to locate are three US Patents (4,372,210, 4,191,947, 4,130,082) describing
intrusion alarm systems using the radiant output from MAGICUBE flash lamps to initiate
a quantity of Armstrong's mixture or SUPER BANG CAPS (potassium chlorate, red
phosphorus, manganese dioxide, sand and glue) to produce an audible alarm.

Finally, A Thought for Today: There are old pyro's and there are bold pyro's, but there
are no old unlucky pyro's!

HELP WANTED
Even the WiZ does not know all (yet). Who, if any one, knows who Armstrong was,
and/or how his name came to be associated with the combination of potassium chlorate
and red phosphorous? WiZ

---------------------------------
HE DO NOW!

“Sir Williams Armstrong’s explosive mixture for shells contains amorphous phosphorus
and chlorate of potash.”

Rudolf Wagner “A Handbook of Chemical Technology” D. Appleton and Company, New
York 1872.
Reprint by Lindsay Publications inc. pg. 546

[wicket]

Fixed it Bert. Now you might want to go back and edit your posting on the dangers of that which should not be named, since it included the formula.