can you make priming compound?

[perotter]

Did you test this ammonium permanganate mix?

No I didn't. I let the fact that it has a limited self life overrule the Curious Carl I have in me.

IMO if one wants make a non-corrosive primer mix and not spend a lot of time learning, buying/making equipment, have problems getting 'feed stock', and the result that Marshall got - I'd work with lead hypophosphite.

FWIW. For myself, once I got corrosive primer mixes that work very well my personal need for a mix was over. After that it has been more of the Curious Carl, the challenge and having come up with a non-corrosive mix that was patentable. The one I came up with isn't practical for a widespread DIY one because of the feed stock needed(availability and current cost).

[footpetaljones]

Perotter,

Would you know of a source for lead hypophosphite? I can find calcium hypophosphite on eBay as Marshall did, but avoiding the trouble of synthesizing the lead hypophosphite would be nice.

[perotter]

Perotter,

Would you know of a source for lead hypophosphite? I can find calcium hypophosphite on eBay as Marshall did, but avoiding the trouble of synthesizing the lead hypophosphite would be nice.

One makes the lead hypophosphite themselves. It is very simple and fast to make as lead hypophosphite doesn't dissolve in water, but both calcium hypophosphite and lead nitrate do dissolve in water.

One just dissolves the calcium hypophosphite in a container of water and dissolves the lead nitrate in a different container of water. Then the solution of lead nitrate is poured into the container of calcium hypophosphite. The lead hypophosphite immediately forms and settles to bottom of the now calcium nitrate solution.

Then the calcium nitrate solution poured out of the container. Rinse the lead hypophosphite several times to remove any calcium nitrate. If there is any calcium nitrate in the lead hypophosphite, the double salt will form.

I buy and use sodium hypophosphite that is already in solution instead of using dry calcium hypophosphite. All dry hypophosphites are on a DEA list as being their sale, import and export being controlled just like red phosphorous. But solutions of hypophosphite were removed a few years ago and my desire to not run afoul with the powers that be, I get the solution. As sodium hypophosphite solution is used for electro-less nickel plating it can be purchased easily. The widespread use of it created a lot of complains to the DEA and that is why the DEA removed solutions of hypophosphite from the list.

This would only apply to buying, selling and import/export of hypophosphite in the US. That is the info on that and do as you think is best. Not likely one would get into trouble, but........

If you or anyone else wants to know how much calcium hypophosphite/water to use and how much lead nitrate/water to use, I'll go look it up in G. Frost's book if you haven't yet gotten a copy of that book. Like reloading ammo, I like looking things up when possible instead of going be what memory says is correct.

[perotter]

I'm looking forward to anything you can report back about what you learn in your next round of experiments.

[Oreo]

Wow, great work Marshall! I am following with interest.

[perotter]

Thanks Marshall for doing the work, sharing what you've done and what you have planned to do. I do think it is good that you are doing the in cup process also. Safe is always good.

I'll have to revisit making some double salt primers next weekend. But it will be winter before I can spend an amount of time on primer mixes and testing them.

If when being used in live ammo there is any problem with the variation with modified mix, a small % more lead nitrate would provide more oxygen for the fuels. Everything I've read on the topic of the double salt is that any extra nitrate stays a nitrate and is still a normal oxidizer.

Also from going by an old Winchester patent and from how artillery primers are made, for DIY boxer primers one could put mix on top of the anvil to give a better ignition of the powder if needed. That mix wouldn't need to a primer mix.

[perotter]

@Marshall

You'd end up with 2 double salts if you made it the same why you currently do. I don't know that the would be a bad thing and this type of thing has be tested by large companies and are in some patents. If memory serves, with what you list have both barium nitrate and lead nitrate available as oxidizers.

I'm very short on time for the next few days and don't know if I'll be able to check more into this in the next few days as to how much nitrate to add or to come up with a mix that would be a starting point.

For something to try one could use no lead nitrate in the primer mix and just try 41% barium nitrate. I too don't like to just use up a few pounds of lead nitrate I have.

PS
I'd use more barium nitrate to fuel than what you list and just the aluminum. Minimum 1-1. I really have to go now.

[perotter]

@Marshall

It looks like this weekend I should be able to try the your centerfire mix in sp and lr. Mainly in sp because I have both easy to ignite and harder to ignite powders. The lr because it allows me to do more detailed testing of ignition variation. It's not likely I'll be able to do much yet, beyond starting.

I was thinking this morning that before maybe just more testing of what you have is all that is needed. The reason being no sense in doing work to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

[perotter]

Thanks Marshall!!!! You've shown how to overcome the 2 things that stop most from DIY primers. Safety and being able to have a non-corrosive.

[Oreo]

Next up is learning how to make a decent modern-ish smokeless powder.

[Oreo]

This was just posted on youtube. Now, keep in mind this guy isn't a "gun guy" really, he's a sciencey undergrad who's ambitious enough to try and fumble his way through all kinds of projects. This one just happens to be relevant:

(I don't know how to embed)

https://youtu.be/ONfeTsByKhM

[Oreo]

I never said it was the best or even a good option. I merely presented a video of it actually being done in the real world by a real person "back yard" style. I wish we had this kind of video of all the formulations being made.

[perotter]

I never said it was the best or even a good option. I merely presented a video of it actually being done in the real world by a real person "back yard" style. I wish we had this kind of video of all the formulations being made.

It would be an option for use in steel cases or shotgun shells. The main factor that limits it's live is humidity and temperature. That was why it was fine for military use in continental Europe, but not for the US or England.

I also think that it is still used or very recently used in Russian mil spec ammo because of there desire for a primer that works in colder temps than what we think is needed, something like -60 vs -40. But I'd have to look that up.

IMO. While I see no great need to use any non-corrosive mix other than the safe and effective one that Marshall has tested for now, there is nothing wrong with looking at a few other mixes that might be useful to someone.

FWIW. I'm currently more interested in DIY smokeless powder now. But the 'fall rush' is on. So, outside of a very little thinking and reading I'm not currently actively doing a powder nor the couple of non-corrosive mixes that one can make for what is available in a local store.

[Rustyleee]

Check this out... compound kit. http://22lrreloader.com/store/

[Texantothecore]

Marshall,

I'm still assembling materials for your mix and I was wondering what grit size you used as the primer mix is going to be used on Treso nipples. I am not sure whethet I should go large on the grit size or very small to pass through the .028 flash channel. Any ideas?

[Oreo]

Is there a DIY smokeless powder thread yet?

[perotter]

Is there a DIY smokeless powder thread yet?

There is sort of in the Special Projects section. It currently is at the point of using an ammonium nitrate/nitrocellulose one. It's been a few days since there have been any posts there.

Doing a DIY smokeless is slow work than DIY primer mixes. With a primer mix that doesn't work nothing happens. With a DIY powder that doesn't work right it can be low FPS or not having that gun anymore. Or worse.

I've researching of the easier to make chemicals that would work besides ammonium nitrate, but haven't found the is to me the best starting point. One runs into things like: short shelve life, poisonous, low power, hard to make, etc.

[perotter]

@Texastothecore,



While I have not measured the particle size of the glass powder I am using, it is about the fineness of flour (my guess is 100 mesh or smaller). I have used a little coarser material in past primer formulations and it works well, but I was worried about barrel abrasion. The finer powder should be more like a polishing agent than an abrasive.

@Rustyleee,

"Check this out... compound kit. http://22lrreloader.com/store/"

Hey, I have that kit and have reloaded and tested about a dozen 22LR rounds so far. I have used the original Eley Prime mix to prime the cases since that was designed for rimfire cartridges. The combination bullet mold/crimp tool works OK but the quality is not stellar. I am looking at assembling an equivalent set of tools, but with higher quality components. For example:

1. CH-4D makes a superior 3 piece 22LR die set for ~$103, the shellholder is another $12,
2. Lyman gas check bullet mold 225438 will make a better bullet and has been used by several folks on castboolits for making black powder 22LR rounds. It costs ~$73, add $33 if you need a set of handles.
3. The most useful part of the kit to me is the small funnel. The exact same funnels are available from eBay, 20 for $10 (free shipping too).

So for about the same cost, you can get much better tools to do this job. Finally, my tests at the range have been 100% successful so far. I used a loading of 1.5 gr Bullseye which seems to be a little hotter than standard target ammo, but not by much.

@Oreo,

I apologize if you thought I was criticizing you about mercury fulminate based primers. While I obviously am willing to take some risks in making primer compounds, this particular compound exceeds my risk threshhold. Anyone who makes and uses this compound needs to do a lot of reading beforehand and take all needed safety precautions to avoid getting seriously hurt.

Marshall

FWIW.
For reloading .22 rf, Vihtavuori came up with 3n37 for 22 long rifle. IMR 800-x and WAP are about the same burn rate.

[Texantothecore]

"While I have not measured the particle size of the glass powder I am using, it is about the fineness of flour (my guess is 100 mesh or smaller). I have used a little coarser material in past primer formulations and it works well, but I was worried about barrel abrasion. The finer powder should be more like a polishing agent than an abrasive."

Marshall,
Thanks for the reply. I have been thinking that the screen size probably doesn't matter but was curious what you used. I saw some 200 screen glass the other day and I will see how well that works. That would be less than a quarter of the size of the flash channel and it should pass through without any real problem.

[ofitg]

TTTC, I believe that the U.S. Army switched from H-48 (which contained ground glass) to FH-42 (which did not contain ground glass) because they determined that the antimony sulfide crystals could serve as grit.

In this excerpt (page 54) from the 1922 book, Microscopy of Small Arms Primers, the author includes the specifications for those particle sizes -


https://books.google.com/books?id=oh...rimers&f=false