Help for a newer reloader

[chrisw]

sorry if this is in the wrong area- but I just see reloading equipment, or Cast loading...


hi!

often I find partial boxes or, in this case, some .223 53g tracers and would love to just load um up and shoot some "tin cans" .

Is it safe to just load starting loads and not worry bout working up? I'm still a bit new to the reloading game and only done ladders to work up loads, and this usually takes at least 100-200 rounds I'm lucky.

but when ii find a partial box of Speer 277's for 3 bucks I'd sure rather shoot um then spend all of them working for they most accurate load with the highest velocity?

thanks!
Chris

for example here is the US Military load spec for the .223 tracer i've got a handful of.
WC 844- 28.5
or IMR 8208M-25.3
or CMR 170 26.5

OAL 2.26
chamber pressure 52,000
projectile weight 54gr

thinking about this, this is a bad example since the data isn't a max load or a minimum load... The "listed military spec" load is 95% of the SAAMI "commercial" load (55,000) and 84% of the max 5.56 "military" load.


in summary- to just load up a handful of rounds is a "safe" rule of thumb to a) just load the minimums? B) step up 2-3 rounds to say 95% max? C) ???

Thanks!

[LUBEDUDE]

First of all, for me highest velocity is not always better. I just try to work up the most accurate load within my parameters.

To answer what I think is your main concern; for me, I don't feel comfortable starting at 95% of max, especially with a high power rifle. More like, mid-range and down, IF it is a powder that I am familiar with. If it is a new powder, then I definitely start at the lowest and go from there.

Hope this helps.

[largom]

Check your loading manual [you have one right?] for the powders you have on hand and load with the suggested starting load.

Larry

[ukrifleman]

Check your loading manual [you have one right?] for the powders you have on hand and load with the suggested starting load.

Larry

Good advice, get a loading manual before you start loading plus, obtain the manufacturers load data for the powder you are using.
Start loads are frequently more accurate than `full house `loads and they don't stress the weapon (or you) as much and you will extend the reloading life of your brass.
ukrifleman.

[gwozdz]

Sometime even a few tenths of a grain of powder will increase or decrease accuracy for your rifle. What's a good for your friend's rifle may not be accurate for yours.

[chrisw]

Good advice, get a loading manual before you start loading plus, obtain the manufacturers load data for the powder you are using.
Start loads are frequently more accurate than `full house `loads and they don't stress the weapon (or you) as much and you will extend the reloading life of your brass.
ukrifleman.

yup- I've got manuals galore! I just wanted t make sure that just loading cheap loads for tin can kinda shooting is if I can just load the minimum listed and run with that. I've got my "go to" loads worked up with ladders to find the most accurate but we all find partial boxes of various bullets at yard sales etc and just wanted to make sure its fine to just run the lowest listed loads for just blasting...

[o6Patient]

The more resources the better, then one can see a consensus, my 223 load is out of
Ken Water's Pet Loads and proved to be a good one although it might be considered
by some to be "outdated". I do agree with Lube Dude that one should start lower than
just -5% below max.

[Love Life]

It should not take 100-200 rds to find the best load. Google "Ladder test" and use that method. You will have your most accurate load well under 100 rds. The standard of loading 5 rounds at each powder increment and firing groups is just plain time consuming, inefficient, and wrong. Ladder test and then thank me later...

Highest velocity is not always the most accurate. If I can achieve the best accuracy at highest velocity then that is cool, but it is usually not the case for me. Accuracy is numero uno for me with velocity being about third in line for my priorities. Unless I am trying to push a 178 gr out to 1,000 yards from the 308 then velocity comes more into play.

Moving along. Tracers are usually longer for weight so keep that in mind to keep from overcompressing your powder charge and possibly moving into unsafe pressures.

Work up slowly and, take notes, and have fun.

[chrisw]

well... I was talking of burning 10 bullets here and 20 bullets there.

As to ladders, I'd say 100-200 rounds is the bare minimum if I'm lucky to find the right powder/seating depth quickly. I used to compete (took the national's in 93) and for me, each loader, each shot is still a competition in itself. I do combine my pressure testing loads and first ladder, usually 5 shots a step, say .3 or .5 grain steps depending on the load. Say about 10 steps from start to max, then another 10 or so steps at the high points (often there might be 2 "peaks" and each might take 10 steps.) I could easily use 3 rounds but if I flub one, 2 rounds just don't provide enough significance. I'd hate to have to drive home to load an extra round or two plus it is fun! Why shoot 3 when you can shoot 5?

So IF I'm lucky and know best where to seat the bullet AND my results are great with the first powder, 150 shots is probably the bare minimum ladder, and a few times I've probably tripled it or more to find the right powder/seating. Just for ****s and giggled I googled it and the first source gave the example of 8 or 10- two round pressure testing then 11 three round steps for the 2nd ladder. So that's just about the same number of bullets but I like shooting 5 rounds rather than 3 for more statistical significance. Their final ladder just used one peak, centered on one mostt accurate group but I'm not usually that lucky, for me I always seem to have 2 more accurate groups at the peak so I gotta work the 3 ranges surroundings those peaks, rather than the 2, one higher and one lower... And if there are 2 peaks....

so following "the book", it can be done in 100 shots but for me, Murphy's law always raises its ugly head.


but back to the topic at hand, it seems that just picking the lowest load in a manual to burn though those small handfuls of random bullets is the easiest for MO-Tin Can!

thanks all!

[Czech_too]

Something else I would be concerned with here is, where are you going to be shooting these tracers?
What is it that Smokey the Bear once said, "Only YOU can prevent forest fires". I would be doubly aware of the surroundings and the backstop before I let one loose.

[Love Life]

I'm confused ChrisW. In your first post you are still kind of new to reloading. In your reply to me you are the master reloader of millennium. Which one is it? Done correctly utilizing the ladder method you should have your pet load at well under 100 rds. Usually takes me less than 75. I was just trying to help, but you have it figured out though so keep on keeping on.

[XWrench3]

i do not think you will find a starting load for the mil surplus powder, nor one for a tracer bullet. i have never loaded a tracer bullet, so i do not know if it would add or subtract pressure from a load. but, if you do have a starting load for that combination, (as opposed to an educated guess), then yes, it is USUALLY safe to just run those all day long. the thing to remember is every rifle chamber, leade, lot of powder is a little different. so there are no absolutes in reloading. it is always a good idea to make up and shoot just a couple to make sure they are safe, before you make up a few hundred, and end up tearing them back down. once you find that a starting load is safe, then yes, you should be able to just shoot them. many time for just "plinking" (tin cans, staple a target to a stump at an unknown distance, etc.) i simply use the Lee powder dip measures to get close to the start load. the key is to read, double check the data, and try a few before assuming it is good to go. assuming ANYTHING in this category is a good way to have a very bad day. also, when i am working up a load, i load 5 of each charge weight in the range of what is listed. then i shoot strarting at the bottom and work up. you should be able to tell in 5 shot groups what will be the most acurate, as long as you are using a steady rest, and shooting bags or a rifle rest. until i reach the maximum load, or until i start getting excessive pressure signs. sometimes, a given powder will just not shoot well in a particular rifle. i have found the keys to finding accurate rounds are, patience, deliberate and precise loading, attention to every detail, and a little bit of luck. if you are going to try for sub moa groups, you will need to pay close attention to ever detail. i even trim every case to the exact same spec after each loading. and if you can feel the difference in neck tension between rounds, you will need to find brass that is much closer in that detail. i hope this helps.

[chrisw]

I'm confused ChrisW. In your first post you are still kind of new to reloading. In your reply to me you are the master reloader of millennium. Which one is it? Done correctly utilizing the ladder method you should have your pet load at well under 100 rds. Usually takes me less than 75. I was just trying to help, but you have it figured out though so keep on keeping on.

I'm a new reloader (for cartridges cases at least- shotgun for over 20 years). But in the past year or so I've worked up maybe 30 or so loads using ladders. I've tried 3 shot steps but just don't feel they give me the data to really maximise the "step". Say if I pull 1 shot in 10, that means I'm basing the data just on 2 shots for every 3rd step. I might be looking for more consistency than others and and often end up trying 4-5 different powders looking for the right one BUT I'm just following instructions. well, besides combining the pressure ladder with the 1st accuracy ladder and using 5 shots rather than 3 to build my data- with 4, even 5, I can discard a flyer due to my in accuracy when analysing the data.

I've tried to just use 3 shots, and on a bad day I end up with no usable data and have to reshoot them.

I guess I know enough to follow directions, but not enough to just say, this sounds safe, I'll load up 25 rounds from this partial box and just shoot some tin cans for fun.

I'm not saying that 3 round ladders isn't great, but for me, and my expectations of myself, I feel more comfortable using 5. Back in my prime, when I could keep 97-98 shots in the x ring prone, I probably could have used 3, but now that I'm old and out of practice with bad eyes, even bench rested I'm lucky to usually keep 90% under 1/2 MOA once I've gotten a good load.

[chrisw]

i do not think you will find a starting load for the mil surplus powder, nor one for a tracer bullet. i have never loaded a tracer bullet, so i do not know if it would add or subtract pressure from a load. but, if you do have a starting load for that combination, (as opposed to an educated guess), then yes, it is USUALLY safe to just run those all day long. the thing to remember is every rifle chamber, leade, lot of powder is a little different. so there are no absolutes in reloading. it is always a good idea to make up and shoot just a couple to make sure they are safe, before you make up a few hundred, and end up tearing them back down. once you find that a starting load is safe, then yes, you should be able to just shoot them. many time for just "plinking" (tin cans, staple a target to a stump at an unknown distance, etc.) i simply use the Lee powder dip measures to get close to the start load. the key is to read, double check the data, and try a few before assuming it is good to go. assuming ANYTHING in this category is a good way to have a very bad day. also, when i am working up a load, i load 5 of each charge weight in the range of what is listed. then i shoot strarting at the bottom and work up. you should be able to tell in 5 shot groups what will be the most acurate, as long as you are using a steady rest, and shooting bags or a rifle rest. until i reach the maximum load, or until i start getting excessive pressure signs. sometimes, a given powder will just not shoot well in a particular rifle. i have found the keys to finding accurate rounds are, patience, deliberate and precise loading, attention to every detail, and a little bit of luck. if you are going to try for sub moa groups, you will need to pay close attention to ever detail. i even trim every case to the exact same spec after each loading. and if you can feel the difference in neck tension between rounds, you will need to find brass that is much closer in that detail. i hope this helps.

Thank you! Luckily with the tracers, the load specified is only 56,000 PSI, so about 15% under max. I should not have used tracers for my example- since they are different, but my plan for those is just loading 5 and shooting across the chrony- if the cases look ok, and the speed is pretty close to spec, I'll just go with it.

I should have used a documented load as my example in the question, but even then once I thought about it, people often shoot subsonic all day long, so unless its a sensitive powder going for the low end is well above 1040fps so being too low really shouldn't be a worry!

thanks everyone for their help!
Chris