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Thread: 50-70 Gummint

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy Black Prince's Avatar
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    You can get away with your hands intact if you do that using target loads of smokeless powders. I remember once the Sheriff's office had a pistol match for all of the people we usually did business with just so we could keep our hand in. On the firing line to my left was the county judge and he was a pretty good pistol shooter. He shot a Colt Gold Cup and he shot it well because he was a former military pistol shooter. We were on the line together and I heard his pistol make a strange sound when he shot. It just sort of sounded like "punk." I turned to him just as he reached up and racked the slide to eject the empty case and he immediately got on his sights as I said Judge, I don't think you ought to.... BANG. He fired the next shot right into the bullet that had jammed in his barrel as a result of the previous round having only a primer in it to fire the bullet just far enough up the barrel to allow the next one to chamber. I was looking right at that Gold Cup from about three feet away when it fired.

    There was a buldge in the slide and barrel just forward of the ejection port and of course, it would not budge to open. It runied that Colt. He sent it back to them but they wouldn't put a new slide and barrel on it because it bent the rails on the frame so bad. I don't know what would have been the result had he been shooting brown box hard ball or some commerical ball stuff. I might not be here if he had or he may not have had a hand or a head for that matter.

    Back in the days when Dillion first came out he didn't have all the nice little safety devices on his presses that he has today. There was always a danger when using progressive loading presses and when I'm on that Dillion, I lock the door to my loading room and make sure there is no cell phone down there. I keep all my atention on what I am doing because it is so easy to make an error using them. Today of course, Dillion has neat stuff added to his presses that make them much less likely to throw a double charge than they once were 25 years ago. Or the thing that always happened to me was to run out of primers and load about 50 cartridges before I noticed powder running out of the cases in the finished box. Now when I run out of primers that neat little buzzer goes off and I know to stop and put in more primers. That sucker loads bullets so quick that I am always out of primers it seems.

    Those of us that have shot a lot have learned safety habits that have become part of our DNA and no habit is more important than having good ammo and that comes from good (safe) loading methods and techniques. The first time we loose sight of that, we pay the price and that is very often very high. It is why I sometimes get labled being overly cautious by those who haven't seen happen what I have. But I don't know how a man can be too safe around something that will blow your hand or head off. And just like drinking and driving, if you care about your buddy, you don't let him do it even if he gets a little pizzed at you at the time.
    The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master wills's Avatar
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    Here is Mr. Trenk's article on blackpowder loading

    http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-result...dick_trenk.htm
    Have mercy.
    A haw, haw, haw, haw, a haw.
    A haw, haw, haw

  3. #23
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    In any original arm, I would never use anything but BP. Trip 7 and Pyrodex will generate higher pressures than BP, esp Trip 7. As to corrosiveness, well, Trip 7 can be very nasty stuff if left in a bore for any length of time, especially so if it comes into contact with ammonia such as is found in many smokeless bore cleaners.

    BP by itself is not especially corrosive. Common water will render it harmless. If you use very warm to hot water, and if you dry the gun thoroughly, BP is not going to be a problem. When you consider that it will shooot well using just 8,000 to maybe 12,000 CUP compared with much higher pressures with Trip 7, BP is THE way to go in original firearms. That's my opinion YMMV but I doubt it.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Black Prince;
    Dern good post! I am with you all the way! A person CANNOT be too safe...

    I raced motorcycles for ten years and I wore a helmut both on and off the track. I also ABSOLUTELY wear my seat belt in my auto. I have done many things that are considered dangerous but I understood the risks and took precautions. When I rappelled, I watched my ropes with GREAT care. No piece of questionable hardware was used at ANY time.

    I reload many calibers and have for many, many years. I have fired more rounds in a year than most would do in a lifetime. I still have all of my fingers and toes (and eyes) and hopefully will take them to the grave with me. The only serious ammo failure came to me with FACTORY 30 06's. I had two catastrophic case failures from the same lot. I buried the rest of that lot!

    Dale53

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy Black Prince's Avatar
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    Yes sir. Mistakes made in the shooting business are usually permanent and made only once. Certain body parts are necessary for us to function and it isn't good to go around putting holes in them or blowing them off.
    The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Prince View Post
    Sundog I probably ought not answer this, but here goes anyway. If you didn't want to know, then don't ask.

    Loading black powder is about as much an art as it is a science. There are certain laws of physics that are indeed science, but they are used in conjunction with caution, brains, and experience with each INDIVIDUAL black powder rifle to determine what load shoots best in it. To be able to do that effectively, you need information. Now you can trust your rifle and your life to what some guy tells you on the Internet, or you can get information from reliable sources that print manuals and have pressure guns and ballistic labs available to them. You decide and you pay the price either way. But I tell you straight out and up front that if you don't want to do black powder loading right, you might better take up golf because BP is NOT like loading smokeless powder. It is NOT a progressive burning powder. It is a class "C" EXPLOSIVE and it acts and reacts a LOT differently to various situations than does smokeless powders. If you are confident that the one loading manual you have covers the subject to your complete satisfaction, then I'm happy for you. But you should know that your life could depend on that information and your understanding of it.

    The first misconception about black powder is that you can't over load it. WRONG! The first time I ever heard that was a man loading his BP rifle the day before hunting season. It was the first time he had ever done it and the clerk at Wal-Mart told him to load it with a "hand full" of powder and don't worry about it because it would only burn the powder that could be burned in the length of the barrel and all excess powder would simply blow out the end of the barrel.

    As the guy was loading his rifle, I went to my truck and got my spinning rod and came back. As the man got ready to shoot his rifle, I asked him if he had ever shot that load before. He said no. Then I suggested that we stick the rifle in the fork of a nearby tree and tie one end of my fishing line to it and back up to pull it to fire the thing. He thought that was a good idea and about six of us standing there all backed up and he jerked the line and shot the rifle. Pieces of it fell all around us and it's a wonder someone wasn't hit by flying parts. It completely blew that barrel off of that rifle into small pieces and split the receiver. You can imagine what would have been the result had he had his face behind that when he pulled the trigger. So much for trusting people you don't know to tell you how to load black powder.

    I suggest in the strongest possible way that you read the one manual you have and know all it says about loading black powder. That you state you have already done that and yet come here and ask basic questions about loading techniques would lead any reasonable and prudent person to think that you either don't have a good loading manual or that you have not studied it because if you had a good manual and studied it, you wouldn't have basic questions about how to load.

    Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now, but that is my best advice to you as a beginning loader of black powder. Black powder is very unforgiving and you will only make one serious mistake with it and we are going to hear all about it on the 6 O'clock news.

    Here's the deal, you need brass, dies, press, BP powder measure, a 24 to 30 inch drop tube, a compression die, dial calipers, and the bullet and load (from a good loading manual) you intend to try. Size the brass, put in new primer, set the powder measure using an accurate scale, throw the change, slowly trickle the powder down the drop tube into the case, put a wad over the powder and push it down as far as you can using finger pressure and maybe a pencil with a soft rubber erasr on the end of it. Using your dial caliper, measure the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case. Then measure the distance from the base of the bullet you are going to use to the crimp groove on the bullet. Subtracting the distance from the top of the wad to the top of the case from the distance from the bottom of the bullet to the crimp groove is the amount of compression you will have to put on the powder column to seat the bullet to the crimp groove. Compress the powder, insert the bullet and seat it. Check to BE SURE there is no air space between the bottom of the bullet and the powder or wad. You are finished except for test firing to check for accuracy.

    Once you insure that the load is reasonably accurate, you can begin to experiment with seating depth always insuring that no air space is present in the load, and with different powder charges always working up slowly and closely observing all the usual signs of building pressure. If you have a chronograph, ( A Chrony is cheap life insurance) the velocity numbers will tell you more about pressure than any visable signs on the brass since velocity is a direct function of pressure i.e., if you observe a jump in velocity, you have a corresponding jump in pressure. That is one of those laws of physics that is science and it works EVERY time.

    Using the above outlined approach, you should encounter no situations where you or your equipment is at risk and that is the responsible way to load black powder or smokeless for that matter. Try it and let us know how you do. It's always educational to understand how a load is developed and the steps in accomplishing that. I have learned a lot from other loaders following their process, BUT I was WELL VERSED in the proper way to load BEFORE I considered their approach and I suggest that you consider doing the same.

    All the best to you partner.
    I just got an old 50-70 TrapDoor. been all over this forum to figure out loads. I have been loading smokeless powder since the mid 80's, and have loaded in excess of 1.5 million rounds ( I know sounds high, but we had a Type 6 years ago), but have NEVER loaded a single black powder round. Thanks for your advice, will order some manuals first and THEN if I have a question will run it by all of you, stay SAFE!!!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check