458 Win Magnum and 416 Rigby cases-longevity and dies

[Frank Savage]

I know that the question doesn´t realy fit here, maybe it would be better to place it on another forum-but because it´s connected with cast boolits, paper patch and BP (or duplex maybe), I ask it here. Also, take in account that I´m in Europe, so a lot of things has a price tag twice as high as in the US, but it´s in euros, not dollars. As well, there´s limited supply of many cartridges I would otherwise take into account.


Background-please read:
There´s not allowed to use any kind of non-cartridge gun for hunting in my country and there are several reasons to have a repater-otherwise I would get a Sharps or maybe Highwall directly in 45-70, for which I can get cases easily.
So I´m looking for some readily availible repeater of at least 40 or better 45 cal, which allows for 45-70 to 45-90 laborations. As well, the budget is quite tight-I can perfectly imagine what rifle I want, but no way to finance the custom build in close future.
I have several demands for the cartridge: no sharp corners and and angles on the body, because that shortens the case life a bit; enought room for 45-90-550 paper patched laboration, easy case maitenance and durability.

I maybe can get a Win 1876 in 45-70 custom build, but the waiting would be almost two years now and I don´t want waste such a rifle by current telescopic sight big enought to use it in the night. And I know that the traditional telecopes have too great aperture number to be any good for selective hog hunting on 100 m even in moonlight-which is a must.

So, if I look for availible and accesible (time- and finance-vise) actions and barrels (if rebarreling needed), there are only two so-so acceptable calibers: 458 win Mag and 416 Rigby. I don´t want use them on their full MV, I ended with them because of the diameter, bullet weight, Taylor KO factor and capability to push a decent BP load into accesible hunting-legal weapon here.

I wanted to avoid a belted cartridge (as 458 WinMag), due to possibility of accumulation of the material in front of the belt due to repeated resizing-but maybe when using a fireformed brass in one chamber, even on this cartridge only neck maitenance is needed and full-lenght resizing is needed only after lenght trimming, if the need for it occurs.
As well, I wanted to avoid steeply necked cartridges (as the 416 Rigby is), due to possibility of crack issues on the abrupt neck-to-body transition.
The best solution would be 404 Jeffery or 450 NE cartridge (albeit a bit too voluminous), but no way to get the rifle for my accesible money. I know that I would use the abovementioned cartridges with pressures at about 2/5 to 1/2 of their CIP standard, which may be very helpful in maintaining case life, but the bug is still bitting...

(Side note: Yes, I can get cheaply a hunting-legal rifle, but I don´t give a s/*t about the small-dia, fast, flat-shooting cartridges. Maybe comfortable for shooting due to flat trajectory, but the old "a 30 cal MAY expand, but the 45 willl NEVER shrink" applies fully. When I see what these fast, light bullets do with the meat and how terrible the wounds from a non-ideal shot placement are, how long does it take to track some of the poor animals, what agony they must go through when the light bullet desintegrates into small shrapnel after hitting the bone and not making the wound lethal, not bleeding enought for so-so easy tracking and just and only painful, I simply reject these calibers. I disdain the people who talks about easy ballistics (total flat out to 200 m), who can´t shoot, leaves the game untracked to die in pain and call it a "tradition"-which comes from the communist era, when almost illiterate nerds were put into game managent just to their "working class" origin...)

So-final questions:
What is your experienced case life (how many reloads) for a well-maintained case of 458 Win mag caliber? What dies would you recomend for 1200-2000 rounds a year, for both hunting and some target shooting up to 600 m? What about 416 Riby for the same purpose?
Or any other ideas how to solve the dilemma?

Thanks for opinions

[o6Patient]

A couple of things jump out at me right off and have had little experience with calibers of this size.
I've been fortunate enough to have played with a couple of 458s. And I liked shooting them albeit
sore shoulder after just a few rounds.
First I believe a non belted case will out last a belted one.
I'm not sure about your concern about the Rigby "due to possibility of crack issues on the abrupt neck-to-
body transition." If the brass is annealed properly and head spaced off the shoulder correctly I'm not sure
why that would necessarily be a problem.
The second and obvious question is do you want a magnum length action or a long action. Long actions
seem to me to be a bit quicker than magnum length ones as would be needed for the Rigby, if I'm
remembering correctly. There are other options for the 416 caliber like the 416 RUM, 416 Rug and even
though it is a belted case I would prefer a 416 rem over a 416 rigby...just my opinion.
...or you can really punish your shoulder and use one of the weatherby chamberings or the 458 Lott.

You didn't say what you would be hunting but there are a lot of choices between the fast 30s
and a .458.

Good Luck.

[Frank Savage]

I know well that non-belted case will outlast the belted one. I know people who had reloaded 308 Win about 60 times. I know about 45-70 cases reloaded 120 times with mild loads and still pretty fine. As well I know that "proper anealed" is the key. But in these abrupt diameter changes as in 416 Rigby, I´m afraid of the need to aneal every 2-3 reloads, which is from my current point of view too often for an utility rifle.
Maybe I was not all that clear-I don´t care about the action lenght, frankly I would be happier with the magnum sized action, since it´s not strained as much as the less robust long action. Not speaking about the fact that the only actions on hand capable of accomodating these calibers are only of the magnum size.
I don´t care much about the original designation of the caliber in thinking about this "budget utility rifle", which I would trust. I´m only looking for pros and cons about these two calibers, as rifles so chambered are readily availible, affordable and both are giving enought case volume for loading PP black powder or maybe mild duplex loads for cleaner burn equal to 45-70 to 45-90 into a reasonably scoped repeater. The last part about 45-70 equal in a repeater is the most important. If there´d be a case like the 458 WM but beltless, I would be a happy bastard. But I have to deal with what´s on hand, I know that both chices are not ideal-so I´m asking people who have some own experience in reloading these cartridges about their experience and tips to choose the lesser "evil".
I don´t see much choices with quite common cases above the 40 cal suitable for said need and want, but maybe I´m still missing something.

As to game-any game/range combination from 20 lbs roedeer on 20 m to 250+ hog up to about 300 m. I´m counting to put together several loads ranging from about 45-(40-50)-300 for the roedeer up the 45-90-500 for the hog or or anything else. That´s also small part of the reason for blackpowder, because it´s easy to use coarse semolina or cornmeal as a filler with it and have zero problems about the loading density.
I´m not planning using the standard loads of these calibers at all-the´re too fast, too heavy and too much penetrating for any game around here.

[elk hunter]

I shoot both the 458 Win Mag and the 416 Rigby. If I had to use either with black powder I'd go with the 458. The 458 cases are cheaper, have more room than a 45-70 so 45-70 velocities will be easy to reach and by neck sizing they should last forever. 416 cases are much more expensive and would be harder to clean due to the neck. Plus there are numerous suitable bullets available in 45 caliber and few in 416. And if you decide to use smokeless the 458 is cheaper to feed as it uses about one third less powder than the 416.

[o6Patient]

It sounds like it is a 45/70 you want loaded up to modern specs.
A 458 loaded down to what you are talking would make the brass
last just fine.
There are not a lot of choices in the 45 cal range.
The 450 Alaskan (45-348 I) is a non belted one but has those scary sharp angles
at the shoulder.
You can always do a wild cat. Shouldn't run more than a hundred grand or so.

[MattOrgan]

Non belted cases lasting longer than belted cases? Really? If you adjust your reloading dies so any case, belted, non belted, rimmed, rebated to headspace on the case shoulder they will last the longest. A bigger factor is the pressure they are loaded at.

Straight case are a little different they last longer. If you don't roll crimp .458 mag cases they seem to last forever. They work great with black powder too. Crimp them for use in magazines and you get mouth splits just like magnum revolver cases after about ten loadings depending on how heavy the crimp is.

The Norma .416 Rigby cases I've been using for years seem to last forever. I think there are two reasons, one I size enough to chamber in my rifle and no more. Two, the Rigby operates at significantly lower pressure than most cartridges. I've never shot black powder in it but cleaning the cases wouldn't concern me. A bucket of hot soapy water for cases fired with black powder solve everything with cleaning but the stink. I now use an ultrsonic cleaner for all cases, they are much cleaner, but it still stinks.

[BruceB]

My .416 Rigby is a Ruger #1 single-shot.

With a total of about 120 Norma cases on hand, I have not lost ONE SINGLE CASE in the course of loading roughly 1500 rounds, the vast majority using cast bullets. Most were relatively low-pressure loads, pushing the 365-grain RCBS bullet at just over 2000 fps. This computes to over ten loadings per case with no losses, and the brass is still going strong.

It never occurred to me that black powder might work in this cartridge....I think there are better uses for my time.

[Frank Savage]

Thaks for the responses. I´m leaning toward the 458 WM due to cheaper and more comon case from the begining, the 416 Rigby is a kind of a backup, if the belt and accumulation of the brass in front of it would be a problem. The 458 has one more advantage, that my ML´s are 45 cal breed, so maybe I can use some moulds-or make them as I did. Working on such a dia is fine, way easier than on anything smaller, it seems to me.

o6patient: no way I´m looking for loading up the 45-70. If I had the rifle so chambered, I´d be a happy bastard-as I wrote. But such a rifle is out of budget, so I have to find something which accomodates such a load in an affordable rifle.

Making a wildcat-no way now, since the cost of the tooling, gunsmith, having the gun through proofhouse (legal must here) when no CIP load exist-at least once as hard on the money as the rifle and rebarelling job.

Since I´m looking forward loads up to about 27-32 000 PSI depending on the bullet weight, holy black or duplex, it´s less than 1/2 the max, allowed pressure for the 458 WM. I know that the max. and even std decent loads produce pressures way above the yield strenght and also above the below the yield strenght of the case-this shall help a lot. Thaks for encouragement from those who did.

If someone has something more to mention, or drop some wisdom about such kind of setup here, please do so.
I´m playing with above explained setup few years in my mind (yes, from the moment when I had possibility to compare side by side, just few yards from each other, the results of 6,5x55, 7x57, 308 Win from different bolt-actions and 45-120-485 from Sharps on a hog). It seemed to me that people who use it just don´t talk about it, because the 458 WM has a lot controversity around it alone, so why to add by a "weird downgrading setup". It´s a pity I think.

[o6Patient]

It sounds like it is a 45/70 you want loaded up to modern specs.
A 458 loaded down to what you are talking would make the brass
last just fine.
There are not a lot of choices in the 45 cal range.
The 450 Alaskan (45-348 I) is a non belted one but has those scary sharp angles
at the shoulder.
You can always do a wild cat. Shouldn't run more than a hundred grand or so.

I think a .458 win mag is what you want and will work just fine..!and you won't be under gunned
if an opportunity arises to hunt...ah ..I guess anything!

[Frank Savage]

Thanks. One more caliber came to mind, the 458 Lott-but I´ll place this into proper section here.

[o6Patient]

I did mention the Lott in my first post , however it's just a lengthened 458 and you were
talking about loading down so the Lott seemed moot for the sake of this discussion.
But of course hand loading would make this just as viable as the 458. 458 brass would
be easier to come by.

regards

[r1kk1]

You could use 375 H&H brass to make Lott brass as I believe that is the parent brass. It would be an interesting black powder/duplex round. I think that would be a cheap way to go. If you want Rigby than there is the 450 Rigby or 450 Dakota. More expensive this route. If I remember right Paul Matthews talked about the 458 magnum and Blackpowder loads.

Take care

r1kk1

[EDG]

The 458 Magnum has a long throat and relatively fast twist rifling at one turn in 14". These features are not very friendly to cast bullets. I would skip the 458. The 416 has a ridiculous capacity for powder. I would skip it too.
While you are thinking about this you must realize a straight cased round either has a belt or a rim.
There are few to no belted rounds that are suitable. The rimmed rounds are used almost exclusively in single shots and lever guns. Your parameters have pretty much excluded you from using run of the mill rifles or maybe any rifles other than a lever, drilling, double rifle, or a rebarreled factory rifle.
The easiest suggestion I can think of is a .458X2". Use a .458 rifle and rebarrel it with a 16" twist barrel with a normal throat.

.458X2 brass can be made from many different belted cases that can be purchased more easily than the .458 Win.

Other than that you can look at a lever rifle in 45-70 - Marlin or Winchester 1886 clone (not 1876 which is a large but weak action).

There is the relatively rare Savage 99 in 38-55 or in .375 Win. Good luck finding either.

[BruceB]

I agree that the .416 Rigby has an extremely large volume for powder. 120 grains of H4831 is NOT a compressed load with moderate-weight bullets. The brass is also very expensive.

However, I have to say that my .416 Rigby has given me wonderful accuracy at all performance levels. Loads with the RCBS 416-350 bullet (actually 365 grains in my alloy) have run from 1100 fps (UNIQUE) to 2600 fps (IMR 4831) and pretty much everything in between..... good groups with many different combinations.

The "standard" cast-bullet load , with 5744, runs 2050 average and groups TEN rounds in 1" at 100 yards. If the shooter can withstand the recoil, the Barnes 300-grain X-bullet will also group around the magical inch mark at 100.... at 3000 fps! You might say that the cartridge is "flexible"....in spades.

[Alan]

Enfield #4's can be converted to .45-70 and .45-90, iirc. Plenty of strength for upscale loading, too.

[o6Patient]

I think the 458x2 is a wicked cool cartridge, I would go with the 450 marlin myself.
Still the 458 win can be down loaded to these levels but the inverse isn't true.