H&R 38-55 target rifle

[Nobade]

Actually, H&R cut the barrels and chambers for the 375 Winchester ...
• Factory Specification - Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• Actual: 0.374 and 0.378
The 375 Winchester is/was the proof round used for testing.
To shoot 380 Pb rounds, recommended to ream the chamber to 401

375 Win chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

38-55 chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

Note the difference in case length, diameter at the mouth, and throating. The H&R barrel looks almost exactly like the drawing for the 38-55, and nothing like the 375 Win drawing.

The 38-55 chamber is designed to be used with soft lead bullets and black powder, and works fine in that capacity. The trouble comes when we try to use smokeless and hard bullets which require the bullets to start out at groove diameter. There really should be a old and modern version of this chamber, and in reality there is since the reamer makers make two different diameter reamers for the same cartridge.

If I wanted to shoot hard grease groove boolits in this rifle I would open up the chamber also. But I don't, I want to shoot it with black powder. It works great that way and I appreciate not having to resize the fired cases beyond a very light kiss with the FL die to reduce the mouth diameter by .002" to get the patched boolit to not fall out when the round is handled.

Tests continue, I was going to shoot it yesterday but the wind was too strong to make it worth it. I am also contemplating getting Accurate to cut me a nicer mould so I don't have to size boolits down so much. I did take some pictures and will get them up here as soon as time allows.

[montana_charlie]

375 Win chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

38-55 chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

Note the difference in case length, diameter at the mouth, and throating. The H&R barrel looks almost exactly like the drawing for the 38-55, and nothing like the 38-55 drawing.

Yeah, you actually said that, but I refused to be confused.

I am also contemplating getting Accurate to cut me a nicer mould so I don't have to size boolits down so much.

You could try dry wrapping your patches to see if you get a tighter fit. Once you get it down, it's just as easy as wet wrapping. You skip the drying step by twisting each bullet into it's case as you wrap them.

If you do get a new mould, have it cut so there is no need for resizing.

You achieve that by knowing exactly how much your paper adds to diameter ... and having a lifetime source for it.

CM

[Nobade]

Oops - fixed my typo. Thanks! It was pretty early in the morning to be writing.


That's the point of getting a new mould - I am having to size a .381" boolit down to .366" to patch it to bore diameter. It would be nice to have a .366" mould. I do have a couple of 9.3mm moulds about that size but they have grease grooves and I want a solid slick.

[Nobade]

Some pictures for fun...

The boolits, before and after sizing. They get a lot longer as well as skinnier.


Some with wads and powder compressed, some before. 56 grains of powder fits in the case. Couple of loaded ones in the background.


Paper cutter with tape for aligning paper and marks for different calibers.


Patched boolits drying on my little coffee mug warmer hotplate.

[Nobade]

An update on the progress with this rifle. I got Tom @ Accurate to make me a 36-275-P,
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=36-275P-D.png
which is just beautiful. Throws boolits right at .366" and they patch up to .373" with my Plover typing paper. I switched from using a lubed felt wad to a .250" grease cookie. Poly wad on the bottom, thin card on top. FFg KIK powder. I fired at paper at 100 yds, and 10 shots gave me a group with 3/4 inch of vertical and about three inches of horizontal. Interesting, I think I am going to make myself a barrel clamp and a modified benchrest to resist the torque from firing and see if I can tighten up the horizontal. I tried shooting some groups at 200 yds, and found out the rear sight doesn't have enough travel to make it. I sure hope Smith Enterprises gets some of his rear sights made up soon. So far I am really liking this rifle, and shooting it without getting beat up so bad as the 45-70 does. Using about two thirds the powder and lead helps too.

-Nobade

[montana_charlie]

I think I am going to make myself a barrel clamp and a modified benchrest to resist the torque from firing and see if I can tighten up the horizontal.

It's good to hear you are making some headway with your loads. But clamping the barrel doesn't sound like the way to fight horizontal stringing.

What part of the gun are you placing on the front rest ... the forearm, the barrel, or the muzzle?

CM

[John Boy]

Nobade, I had the better groups resting the rifle at the back of the forearm. Also the H&R can be trick out. Many items in the FAQ's on Graybeards ...
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=26264.0

[Nobade]

Placing the forearm on the rest.

I can hold it in my hand, with that on the rest and groups are round but bigger.

Thanks for the links, GB and I go way back. I am going to keep playing with this little rifle and see what develops, but so far I am very pleased with it and its dedicated paper patch chamber.

-Nobade

[montana_charlie]

Placing the forearm on the rest.

Try placing the barrel on the rest, about four inches back from the muzzle.
Mark your spot with masking tape or something and be very precise (shot to shot) when resting the barrel on the tape.
See what that does to group shape ...

CM

[Nobade]

Try placing the barrel on the rest, about four inches back from the muzzle.
Mark your spot with masking tape or something and be very precise (shot to shot) when resting the barrel on the tape.
See what that does to group shape ...

CM

Yep, that's the plan next time out....I'll keep you posted.

-Nobade

[VICIOUS]

HI. HR well I just cut 38/55 brass to 375 length ,loaded with smokeless and 250 grain bullet .379 diameter.

[PS Paul]

Resurrection of a four year old post?

outstanding!

[John Boy]

Nobade, it sort of makes a fella wonder if they didn't use the original Ballard chambers on those rifles, and that's why they called it a Target rifle.

Nobade, Don is close to the reason for the 375 chambers ... yes, Ballard was in 375 and so was Wirfflien. I have to use the Ideal 37584 bullet for the Wurfflein @ 375. But when Green Mountain cut the the chambers for the Targets, they used the 375 reamer for the Winchester 375 smokeless rounds. These were also the rounds used by H&R for factory testing ... never considering that there are lead bullet shooters also. I reamed the chamber to .400 and am able to easily chambers 382 diameter reloads after fire forming and the go to bullet is the Ideal 375166 which Accurate cut a clone for

[Lead pot]

John why would the man want to enlarge a chamber that much when all he wants to do is shoot a PP bullet at bore diameter??
I have more powder rifles that I made special reamers for that will just except a PP bullet that is .002 over bore diameter. These rifles shoot better using a PP then the rifles I have with standard chambers shooting GG bullets.

Kurt

[Nobade]

Sort of what I was thinking. There aren't many rifles out there tailor made for shooting paper patched bullets, this one is really good with them, I don't think I will change it.

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[Gavetta]

have one I would sell.

[rfd]

hey andy, how's the trigger on that gun? typically, they're real heavy pullers and the sear's surface hardening doesn't take kindly to honing let alone filing.

[Nobade]

hey andy, how's the trigger on that gun? typically, they're real heavy pullers and the sear's surface hardening doesn't take kindly to honing let alone filing.

Mine is quite nice. Don't know if it has been worked on before I got it, but I doubt it. The 45-70 one I had was good too, makes me think they used lighter springs in the target rifles.

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[9.3X62AL]

While we are on the subject of 38/55 with castings in Starline brass......I have a Win 94 re-done from 25/35 WCF (long story.....) into a 38/55 M&B by JES Reboring. Groove diameter is .376", throat is the same, and I size to .377". The Lee 250 grain plain-base at 1300-1400 FPS poses no issues. The Lyman and RCBS gas checked flat noses are problem-free from 1400 FPS up to about the 1650 FPS level, but much past that point and primer pockets start loosening in my rifle.

My thoughts are that much of what little data exists on loading the 38/55 with smokeless powder for "high velocity" results may have been derived shooting some combination of loose-fitting bullets in wide-diameter barrels. Make haste slowly while climbing the ladder.

[Nobade]

I never had any problem shooting high velocity loads through my rebored 336, as far as the rifle or the cases. It's just that it kicks so much it's no fun to shoot so after seeing what it would do I stuck to black powder or equivalent level smokeless loads for it.

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