Only lead and tin?

[Derenius]

Hi guy´s, I´m new at this stuff, and trying to learn a bit.
So if I come of as I don´t know a darn thing, that´s exactly right!
Well, I´m getting a Marlin 444p in a few days, and I´m staring to gather up equipment and knowledge to start casting my own boolits.
So far, so good.
However, we have the same problem over here in Sweden, as you guys have over there, the wheel weights made out of lead are geting really hard to find.
So, I have this lead wire, it´s pure lead. And, I have a lot of old plates and stuff that are pure tin.
Is it possible to alloy these two, to get a hard enough cast bullet for use in a rifle?
If not, what else should I be looking for, to get a good alloy?
Thank´s in advance!
Dennis

[OuchHot!]

Generally speaking it is hard to get high velocity loadings out of just lead and tin. You can have lots of fun and hunt effectively with the 444 using 1-30 or 1-25 but I think that some antimony is useful for higher velocities. If all else fails, you could buy "chilled shot" or hardened shot for shot shell reloading...that will get you an easily melted form of antimony in the 6-8% range and even just 2% in your overall alloy will allow a greater range of hardness. The arsenic that is found in the shot will allow quench hardening as well. Is print metal (linotype, sterotype, or monotype) available? Also some bearing alloys (we call it babbit over here) have appreciable antimony content.

[Derenius]

Well the type metals are hard to come by as well, unfortunately. I've got some ww rounded up, I just want to check out my options before its all gone. If all else fails, I'll just try to buy shot in bulk. Should be easy enough, the Italians pump that stuff out.
What other stuff can a man be on the look out for? Like sailboat keels, and what? Diving weights, are they pure lead, or antimonial?
I'd like to get a hold of something big, so I can be set for life with a big hunk of lead, preferably already antimonial, but if that can't be done, I'll try to get pure lead and typemetals.
Thanks for answering by the way.

[OuchHot!]

I suspect that boat keels and diving weights are anything that was dense and cheap when the vendor went to cast them. In other words, I have no idea what they may have in them. Most alloys used in bullet making have antimony of 1.5-3% to get them to extrude evenly. Maybe you can find a public range willing to sell you (or let you mine) the lead from the backstop? I have used that source and after smelting, sold the jackets but smelting it was an ugly process.

[arcticbreeze]

All my hunting boolits that I cast for my 444 are 50%ww and 50% pure lead with 2% tin added. With a 300 gr GC boolit I have no problem with leading at 2100 FPS. As long as your boolit is big enough I think I could even go softer.

Marc

[Derenius]

Well, mining it out wont be all that pleasant either I imagine
Sure, that's an option, but one I'd like to wait until I explore, actually. Here in Sweden, people tend to shoot a lot less than you guys do over there, so it would be a really tedious task to find any substantial amounts of lead in our backstop... I think I'll try to check the scrap metal business in town, and see what they might offer.
I'll keep my yes open for any or all possible sources from now on...
Thanks for the input.

[Derenius]

All my hunting boolits that I cast for my 444 are 50%ww and 50% pure lead with 2% tin added. With a 300 gr GC boolit I have no problem with leading at 2100 FPS. As long as your boolit is big enough I think I could even go softer.

Marc

So what you are saying is, with increased bearing surface, the need for hard lead decreases? That's a nice piece of information, as I'm looking in to ordering a bullet mold from mountain molds that will throw a .433 bullet, weighing 330 grains. That should be enough to handle most critters I could ever stumble upon, and it sure has the bearing surface to boot.
Thank you for that!

[MikeS]

If all you have is pure lead, and pure tin, with a 444 you should be fine. I would use an alloy of 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. Or possibly even 1:16. One of them gives you an alloy with a brinnell hardness of close to 15 which is plenty hard for your 444 cartridge. While it might be nice to have an antimonial lead alloy, if you have lots of both pure lead & tin, and don't mind that you might technically be wasting 'expensive' tin, you should be good to go. One advantage to using an alloy of just lead & tin is that the boolits will be much more malleable, so if you're going to do any hunting you won't have to worry about the boolit breaking up when it hits the animal.

[arcticbreeze]

So what you are saying is, with increased bearing surface, the need for hard lead decreases? That's a nice piece of information, as I'm looking in to ordering a bullet mold from mountain molds that will throw a .433 bullet, weighing 330 grains. That should be enough to handle most critters I could ever stumble upon, and it sure has the bearing surface to boot.
Thank you for that!

One thing though is the Marlins have a notoriously short throat/lead. I have a custom mold from mountain molds that I love. Before you order it I would suggest reading this page written by Glen E. Fryxell. It is some great info.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

His design



My design



Notice the reduced diameter of the front band. Most of the commercial molds have to be short seated to cycle well in the Marlin.

Marc

[arcticbreeze]

By the way Mountain Molds are a work of art, here is the actual mold.

[Derenius]

Yes, I understand that the alloy will be softer, or at least more malleable, as you say. I'll try to round up a new source for antimonial lead before my ww is gone, and we'll see..
About the bullet design, I am aware of the short throats in marlins, and the bullet is designed for it. I'll try to get a picture on here during the day, and you guys can say what you think about it maybe?
Again, thanks for all the good information!

[Derenius]

Well, here´s my design, I was not really far off at all, if I might say so...
Think this will work?

[Lloyd Smale]

if all you have is lead and tin and want to run some decent velocitys id consider 1-16. If you can get ahold of some shot hardrened with arsnic and add some to it so you can effectively water drop your bullets youd be way ahead and be able to say alot of expensive tin.

[Lloyd Smale]

by the way one thing you have going for you is the 444p guns had good barrels. Probably one of the only 44 cal marlins that they got right. Ive had 2 and my buddy has had 3 and all were good guns and had nice smooth bores and bullets sized at .430 did just fine in them. I foolishly sold my first one and lucked into the one i have now and it would probably be the last lever gun in the safe that would be sold. heres an ariticle on that rifle my buddy wrote http://www.leverguns.com/articles/an...4Outfitter.htm

[Derenius]

Yeah, i heard that about the p's. the previous owner has slugged the barrel to .432, and have been shooting nothing but cast in it since it was new. I'll propably get it home this weekend, and then the testing can begin.

[OuchHot!]

20:1 lead: tin alloy is rated at BHN 10
10:1 is given BHN 11.5
Generally speaking, a little bit of antimony is a very big help. The solubility limit at room temp for tin in lead is about 2% and when you get too far beyond that the pure tin phase tends to start growing. The end result can be less useful over time. I do not see the utility in adding tin past 4% unless you are adding other elements that form intermetallics like antimony and arsenic. I do not know the chamber configuration of the 444 Marlin but it seems similar to the Browning 45-70....no throat sharp lead. If that is true, then your design looks useful to me.

[Derenius]

Again, thanks for the input. I do believe that I found a source for lead that won't deplete. Found an online retailer here in Sweden who sells lead with 6% antimon, either in small or big lumps.
I can buy either 5lbs for 14 bucks, or 100lbs for about 150 bucks. So, I'll have the lead covered for a good deal of time... But for now, I'll just use the wheel weights I got a hold of. I just don't know how much there is of it yet.