Scratching my head at this one....

[jdgabbard]

So I'm at the local Indoor Range yesterday evening. Putting rounds down range. I've brought with me two pistols, my RIA 1911-CS, and my S&W Sigma 9mm. Now it takes me a little warming up before I start respectably placing rounds on target at about 10yrds. I was shooting 6in circles, and seeming to be able to place all shots in the black, usually within a 3" grouping. But then something strange happened. I picked up the RIA, which was being fed a dose of 230g Aguila, pointed at the target, and fired. And my first shot hit about 6-7" low. I continued to shoot the pistol to see if my a was pushing the muzzle down, but that didn't seem to be the case. A gentleman next to me by the name of Jim allowed me to shoot his Springfield Government. Same story, I was shooting about 6-8inches low.

Now I have never actually taken this out target shooting. Just shooting B-27 type targets for concealed carry purposes. Which it does seem to do fine with, and now that I think about it, shots may have been a little low. I don't really think I'm pushing. And I don't seem to be with the Sigma, which actually has more felt recoil to me. What do you guys think?

[clintsfolly]

My WAG is your dropping it to see where it hit. I see this a lot in shooters at the falling plates. They alien the sites, squeeze,then lower the gun to see if it is going down or where the hole is!! Hope this helps Clint

[Cherokee]

Did Jim shoot your gun ? Where was he hitting with his gun ? It could be you, or maybe your sights need adjusting.

[BruceB]

Six inches low at 10 yards is a MAJOR problem; I suspect it's a flaw in your technique. This is more than a sight-adjustment error, I think.

Get someone else to make the gun ready to fire, handing it to you already closed so you don't know if it's actually loaded or not. The first time the hammer falls on an EMPTY chamber, you (and he) will probably know where the problem lies. This is the well-known "ball and dummy" routine.

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, Jim shot the gun. Liked it alot. Killed the black. I know it's me and technique. However, I'm not having this issue with my other pistols. I'm more of a wheel guy to be honest. And I would think if anything I would think I'd be shooting high. I guess there is only one way to solve this. More range time and proper attention to technique...

[tomme boy]

How was the lighting? I shoot totally different places when I shoot outside compared to inside. It's really bad if the sun is at my back. Not as bad as what you are doing, but it is enough to notice.

[MBTcustom]

Without seeing you shoot, it's impossible to tell. All I know is that just like you "drive" a car, but you "ride" a Harley, 1911 takes some finesse. With most pistols, you let the gun do all the work, but you have to steer a 1911. You have to learn how to run it. The good news is, that usually once you learn, you never lose it, at least not for long. I can get somebody to that place in one afternoon with about 400 rounds of ammo, but I have to be able to watch them shoot.

[Willbird]

I have noticed new shooters with 45 hardball loads start to shoot low, give them some target loads and or a few mags with a lighter recoil pistol and they get right back in the game. In their case it was a flinch more or less. A little ball and dummy might show you something ?? Have somebody else load the mag with some dummies mixed in with live ammo.

[rsrocket1]

Shoot from a rest or sandbags to begin with to prove to yourself it's you and not the gun.
When I started shooting my 1911 after a 20 year hiatus I was shooting 6" low very consistently at 15 yards. This was so consistent that I thought the sights were off. Since the gun had fixed sights, I made some "rear sight extenders" out of cardboard and taped them on. The groups went straight into the bullseye. What I later realized was that my technique was the problem but it was so consistent, I thought it was a hardware problem.

The cure: shoot, shoot, shoot! I tried different techniques such as left-hand-under-right-hand, "death grip" until I was shaking after only 50 rounds, squeezing the web of my hand so high and hard that it bled after each session. But eventually, experience and just getting comfortable with shooting the gun cured all the problems.

Try shooting a lot with that gun and that gun only for a while. I've noticed that switching guns tend to cause loss of accuracy as much as going a spell without shooting at all. Some times I may start with a light load on the 1911, then switch to the full house rounds and I notice that my accuracy stays the same even though the "springy bounce" of the light stuff turns into a "stiff jump" with the heavy stuff.

[Jkallen83]

Without seeing you shoot, it's impossible to tell. All I know is that just like you "drive" a car, but you "ride" a Harley, 1911 takes some finesse. With most pistols, you let the gun do all the work, but you have to steer a 1911. You have to learn how to run it. The good news is, that usually once you learn, you never lose it, at least not for long. I can get somebody to that place in one afternoon with about 400 rounds of ammo, but I have to be able to watch them shoot.

i like this reply. ive got one pistol i shoot 2 handed and its dead on, but my conceal carry pistol if i hold tight with 2 hands shoots low. it actually is accurate off the recoil bounce. so shooting one handed, its perfect, but 2 handed when i have full solid control, its low. so like was mentioned, instead of "steering" the gun, try loosening up or one handed shooting and let the gun do the work and see what happens.

[jdgabbard]

Those are all some very good points. I can keep great groups all day long with a wheelgun. I can do a pretty decent job with my various autos. And when it comes to this pistol it seems that I'm all thumbs. Quite humbling to be honest. Like I said, I'm going to just continue to work on the fundamentals and put lots of rounds down range.

Out of curiosity, I'm having a problem with the brass ejecting pretty violently to the front. About 2ft to the right, and 4ft in front. I'm thinking the issue could be the spring. Do any of you 1911 vets think a stouter spring (22-24lb) may fix this issue? This is a Officer's model, it that helps.

[375RUGER]

Probably not a spring thing, but I won't say 100% it's not. It might be too heavy if anything.
Your extractor may need to be profiled and/or tensioned. Or the ejector may need to be profiled.
Does your extractor have a pan handle (like OK) on it or is it more flush or rebated?
Is the brass hitting the slide on it's way out?
Is it consistently ejecting like you describe or is there some randomness to it?
.

Just thinking out loud now about the shooting low thing. It might be possible that the smooth front strap and grips (assuming I am thinking of the right model 1911) is causing you to grip the gun harder because the smooth feel is subconsciously making you think you should grab it vise like.
I'd concentrate on shooting only the 1911 for a few range sessions.
How's the trigger on it?

[Gtek]

Confirm clear, grip/frame size issue? Grab the revovler with eyes closed and see where trigger finger is on trigger, then repeat on pistol. Might be fisting pull instead of finger pulling. Just a thought. Gtek

[MBTcustom]

The brass issue is a ejector/extractor tuning issue, but it may settle down after you get 'er broke in correctly.
I think most of your problems will disappear after you shoot 400 rounds through it.
Load up 400 rounds and burn them one afternoon (wouldn't hurt to do 600 that's about what I go through in 2 hours) Don't think about it, just relax and shoot. Work with the gun not against it!

[tomme boy]

The slide is hitting the brass as it is going forward. Seems most 1911's that are not the original 5" design have this issue. Like goodsteel said. Run 1K rounds threw it and as long as it is not jamming or hitting you in the face, I would leave it alone and keep shooting it.

[o6Patient]

That is weird, you said it grouped bigger or was it just low?
Did you put the front on the bags to verify if it's the gun..
or something else?

[runfiverun]

i'm wondering where your off hand was.
if it gets low on the gun it will change the shots to low.
get your left hand up on top of your right hand.

[Russ in WY]

That's a lot of Boolit your pushing there. Try something lighter , I have been casting a 155 gr SWC, not the usual 45 weight . Normally 185 /200 lead SWC is what guy's shoot. 4 grs of Clays behind the 185 or 200 shud get it done , and is a lot more pleasant to shoot. Agree with the above may need some tweaking on the extractor /ejector to get the brass to go a different direction . With the lighter loads may also have to change to a lighter recoil spring , to get reliable function. Do U have a recoil buffer pad installed , they are a nice addition also I think . My 2¢, Good Luck , Russ...

[375RUGER]

[QUOTE=tomme boy;1987510]The slide is hitting the brass as it is going forward. Seems most 1911's that are not the original 5" design have this issue. QUOTE]

No they don't have to if they are put together right. The stroke on the Commander is shorter than the full size. So some parts of the operation have to happen with a little different timing. i.e. the ejector needs to bump the case head sooner than later. If it bumps later then the case isn't getting out of the way as the slide starts it's forward feed. Hence, my question about the profile of the ejector.
We at least know that jdgabbard isn't limp wristing or he would probably be getting stove pipes as well.
jdgabbard,
If you do change things like load or springs and get stovepipes then these things can cause it.
recoil spring too heavy for load, load too light for the recoil spring, extractor tension too light, worn extractor hook, damaged ejector
Just remember to change one thing at a time.

[Mk42gunner]

Since it is happening with both your short gun and Jim's fullsize; I really think it is a case of anticipating the recoil. Not a real bad case, those usually show up as the boolit impacting the ground directly under the target at either 15 or 25 yards.

No matter what the range is the cure is the ball and dummy drill like Bruce said. If you don't have anyone alse available to load your gun, you can mix a few dummies and live rounds to load your magazines without looking. This also gives you a chance to practice your tap, rack, bang drill; although I wouldn't be to enamored about loosing my dummy rounds at an indoor range.

Being more comfortable with revolvers than auto loaders is understandable, it just takes praactice to be able to use both equally well.

Robert