Tuning Cast Bullets to my Marlin 1894C

[Jeff82]

I've gone through about 2,000 rounds developing loads for my Marlin 1894C. I'm curious what others have experienced with CB cartridges. I shoot primarily benchrest and offhand at 100 yards using Skinner peep sights. Normally, from a fully supported position I'll fire 35 shot groups, which will --on average-- cluster in a six-inch group around the bullseye with all outlyers within a twelve-inch cluster. This is generally how I test accuracy as it removes the most other variables. In unsupported benchrest my accuracy drops by about 8%. It took me about nine months of tweaking to reach this level of accuracy, which ends up being about a 35% improvement from my initial efforts.

I think I'm finding that softer bullets seem to produce better accuracy. I cast Lee 158 grain RNFPs with about 1.0% antimony and 2.0% tin and water drop them. I then lubrisize them to 0.359 and use Lyman Orange as a lubricant. My current batch of CBs have a bhn of around 13.0. So, sizing all this up, I need a little help deciding how good is good enough, and what reasonable expectations should be. So,.....

1- Accuracy: How good is good with iron sights? In other words, would continued tweaking of the CB likely produce better results? At what point do you decide that attempts at improvement of the CB will just be lost among all the other variables involved in putting a bullet on it's target. I know this is pretty much the kind of thing you have to answer for yourself, but knowing what others expect in terms of CB accuracy with iron sights might help be figure it out.

2- Leading: This is a vexing problem for me. It's present to some extent with every load I've tried. I've certainly make big improvements by using better lubrication and increasing the diameter of the bullet, etc. It's still there though. At present I shoot 250 rounds when I go to the range. When I get home I'll use a heavy cleaning rod and a very tight jag. After about twenty minutes of cleaning I'll have the barrel clean (as much due to getting the fouling out as getting the lead out). Usually, my 250 rounds will leaves tiny flecks of lead -- maybe thirty to fifty small pieces-- that clean out fairly easily using this process. So, is this just normal, 250 round fired, 30 to 50 flecks of residual lead? What do other people experience?

The accuracy and leading thing comes to a head when deciding whether to keep reducing BHN to achieve better accuracy, perhaps at the cost of increased leading.

Sorry for the long winded post. But I'd be interested in what CBs you shoot, your experiences and thoughts on accuracy and leading, etc.

[btroj]

I would prefer zero lead. I clean mine every few months, usually after 500 to 1000 rounds or more. Never get lead at all.

The accuracy isn't bad. I prefer under 6 inches total even with irons. Mine does that well, or better.

I found one to be very picky about what it shot well. I asnt getting better than 4 inches at 50 yards until I got a 359640 mould from Miha. Now it groups under 2 inches at 50 and will go under 4 at 100 easily.

Keep trying different loads. The rifle wants to shoot better, it just needs the right bullet and load. mine didn't like any SWC I tried. The Lee you are using was OK but not great. Mine also shoots better the harder I drive them.

Don't give up. Try harder and softer. I would suggest a better lube, what you are using isn't bad but certainly not great. Mine has a sharp throat and needs a bullet with a certain nose shape to self center into the lands or groups open fast.

[barkerwc4362]

I shoot the SAECO 180gr flat nosed gas checked bullets (#354) through my 1894C. I cast them of linotype, run them through a .360 die and lube them with blue angel lube. I use a stout charge of WC820 powder. With a 4 power scope I can keep ten shots inside the ten ring on an SR-1 target. The large diameter, long bodied bullets shoot better in my micro-grooved barrel.

Bill

[bobthenailer]

See rifle magazine #213 theres a good article on 357 mag rifles , written by Brian Pearce

[Jeff82]

Interesting. I forgot to mention that I have the Ballard rifling and push velocities of around 1,250 ft/sec. What do you recommend as a lube? Blue Angel? Thanks.

[btroj]

Something soft. NRA 50/50 would be better than the really hard lubes White Label has some good stuff too. BAC from them or the 50/50 would be good choices.

[runfiverun]

flip your alloy around.
that will cure about 15 of your problems.
1% tin and 2% antimony will infinatly help.
if this is a new gun try some 125 gr boolits.
you should be hanging in the 4" area

[44magLeo]

Your velocities seem a bit low. Not even starting loads in my Lyman book. At these speeds a softer bullet will give better accuracy because the powder charge can't get the bullet to upset enough to grip the rifling.
You don't mention the powder or charge weight. Using a powder that gives you 1500 to 1700 fps might give better accuracy. I use w/c w/w to make Lymans 429421 lubed with Lee's Liquid alox lube and with large doses of 2400 or H110 I get good accuracy with minimal leading at about 1700 fps. I don't size them, just shoot as cast.
Have you slugged the barrel to know what size it is? Do this and size to .001 or .002 above the bore size.
35 shot groups, better to use 5 or ten shot groups.
Leo

[Jeff82]

I use 5.8 grains of Universal to get to about 1250 fps. Barrel slugs to 0.356. Accuracy does seem to improve with lower bhns. I think I'll try a softer alloy next.

[358 Win]

I shoot all manner of cast bullets from my two Marlin 1894's in .357 Magnum. One is a first year production 1894 Carbine and the other is a 1999 1894CBL
with ballard rifling and 24" barrel. The 1894C has a 2.5x20mm Bushnell Banner mounted on it that I have for over 35 years and it's been on a half dozen other rifles but now found it's permanent home. The 1894CBL has a Lyman 66A receiver site mounted and the original front site. Let me start by saying I get no leading what so ever with my alloy which has a bhn of 13 using wheel weight metal and 0.5% tin which does not harden the alloy, it only makes the alloy fill out the bullet mould better. I shoot my high performance cast bullet loads in excess of 1800fps. I attribute the non leading to the correct size of the
cast bullet, the lubricant, and the correct installation of the gas checks. My 1894C loves the Lyman 358156 SWCGC sized .3595", lubed with Javelina Alox, a Hornady gas check installed, 15.0gr of AAC#9, and a standard small pistol primer. Velocity runs right at 1800fps. Groups with the scope site run around 1.5
inches at 50 yards and 2.5 inches at a 100 yards. The 1894CBL shoots best with the Ranch Dog 359-175 RFGC bullet sized .3595", lubed with Lee Luquid Alox by hand dipping them and a Hornady Gas Check installed prior to sizing them. My load for that bullet is 13.5G of Alliant 2400, a standard small pistol primer and the velocity runs 1636 from the 24" barrel of the 1894CBL. Groups with the Lyman 66A receiver site run around 2" at 50 yards and 3.5" at 100 yards.
My alloy produces bullets weighing 165gr with Lyman 358156 bullet and 180gr with Ranch Dog 359-175 bullet. My walk about load in each 1894 is the Lyman 358429 173gr SWC plain based bullet seated in .38 Special cases with 11.5gr of Alliant 2400 powder and a standard small pistol primer for 1450fps.
That bullet is also sized .3595" and lubed with Javelina Alox lube. I also shoot the Lyman 358627, 218gr SWCGC bullet and the Lee 358-158 165gr SWCGC
bullets. The huge 218gr Lyman 358627 I load up in .38 Special cases with 9.0gr of ACC#9 for 1250fps. The Lee 165gr SWCGC also shoots great with 15.0
grains of ACC#9, just like the Lyman 358156 165gr SWCGC. The two 165gr SWCGC bullets have proven to be superbly accurate in my .357 Magnum Revolvers when loaded with 15.0gr of ACC#9. By good luck I'm therefore able to use the same high performance load in both rifle and handgun. Hope this
helps you.
358 Win

[44magLeo]

With your load a softer alloy may shoot better but it may lead more. What other powders have you tried?
To what purpose are working a load up for. A no recoil plinking/target load or something with enough umph to use for hunting.
I might up the tin to around 5% not worry to much about the antimony.
I would also try some 2400, start with about 12 grs and work up to around 15 grs. I would also try H-110 , starting at 15 grs and work up toward 17 grs.
Either of these will upset the bullet enough to grip the rifling. I would also try a few different lubes. Some work better than others under different circumstances.
I like Lee's alox. Easy to use and no leading.
Leo

[FergusonTO35]

Jeff 82, I take it you are not using a gas check boolit? My Marlins are all micro groove and have a definite preference for GC slugs. That's not to say they won't shoot plain base well but I know GC works great so that's what I use for everything but very mild loads. You may want to consider trying a gas check boolit and keeping everything else the same.

[Jeff82]

I'm shooting with ballard rifling, and shooting mid-range cartridges with Universal powder. I keep the velocity down a bit to reduce overheating the barrel in hot weather. Max power isn't really an issue for me, since I only target shoot. A number of people seem to have the best luck with CQ bullets. Failing all else, I may need to resort to gas checks. I have noticed that my accuracy has improved steadily the more I lower the hardness. So, I'll probably play with this a bit more. I'd try to up the diameter to 0.360, but my bullets are casting at about 0.359, so...

[FergusonTO35]

Is Universal the only powder you have been using? Its a great powder but may not be the best choice for your gun and boolits. Last weekend I put some rounds through my own 1894c. I was shooting 5.7 grains of Unique with a CCI small rifle primer under a Missouri Bullet Co. .358 LRN. I was shooting some pretty tight clusters at 40 yards in spite of the fading light and shaky monopod rest. I find Unique is an excellent powder for cast in the 9X19 and mild .357's, it seems to be more forgiving than others as far as leading is concerned. If you have some I would give it a try.

[chg]

Jeff,

I've been using Lyman mold #358156, BHN 14, sized .358, lubed with any NRA 50/50 formula lube, in Starline .357 cases, CCI 550 primers, and 15.5 gr H110 in my Marlin 1894C with excellent results. An occassional fleck of lead in cold temps. Accuracy with a Marble's receiver sight runs 2 - 3" at 75 yards for 5 shots. Velocity runs just under 1800 fps. This will warm you barrel up in hot weather but that would be the only draw back (other than gas checks) from what I think you're looking for. You and I must have run across the tight barreled Marlins. Mine runs .3575" with no tight or loose spots.

This is off subject now but just reading this thread (like so many others on this forum) it's nice to see a place exists where people can ask a question and get so many sencere, helpfull answers. I find myself doing way more reading than commenting. It's that good!

[Jeff82]

I have to agree. People are very pleasant and helpful on these forums. This has really been my "go-to" place to ask questions when I'm havng problems and to offer observations on useful or unusual things I've encountered.

Gas checks at higher velocities seems to be a common solution. I'm thinking of reducing the loadings and trying a softer bullet. I've heard from some that the Lee RNFPs seem to do better at lower velocities.

[FergusonTO35]

I've found that all the Lee boolits do really well when water dropped.

[Jeff82]

I'm also wondering if cartridge AOL might be an issues. I've been seating me bullets to 1.55 to be consistent with 38-special lengths in order to use the driving band as lube groove. I might try a slightly oversized AOL to see if this reduces leading. Seems like the Lee bullets should be OK, and that the typical BHN of the bullets I've been casting and their diameter (0.359) should not result in leading.