Originally Posted by Black Prince
It appears there is soy wax, used in making candles.
http://www.soya.be/soy-wax-history.php
http://www.soyawax.com
http://www.soywaxcandles.org
http://www.millcreeksoywaxcandlesupply.com
http://www.northstar3c.com
http://www.naturalwaxcandle.com
http://www.candlesupply.com/EZsoy.html
http://www.earthguild.com/products/candle/soywax.htm
http://www.creativeilluminations.com/category_8.php
Have mercy.
A haw, haw, haw, haw, a haw.
A haw, haw, haw
Black Prince, that will teach you not to challege the board. Wills is man of few words but lots of answers and succinct, no long winded thesis for him.
Bob
Hell BozBoy, I ain't challenged anything here . . . YET, but if or when I do, you'll know it because I will lay out the challenge clearly, describe it, define it, and ask for the board members to help solve it. All I am doing is asking questions because there are things posted here that are open ended and leaves a lot of room for explanation.
It is evident from all of the discussion here that no one seems to have a lube that satisfies the requirements for hot and dry conditions. THAT is the purpose of this discussion which is NOT a challenge other than we are all challenged to find the solution. When terms and materials not commonly used or found are thrown out in the discussion here without complete descriptions and how they might help solve the problem under discussion, you, and the board, should expect people to question whatinhell you are talking about. That is because if you had the answer to the issue under discussion here, we wouldn't be having the discussion in the first place. I knew there is soy wax and was injecting humor into the discussion. What does soy wax have to do with the solution to a lube for hot, dry conditions? THAT was my question and Wills did not answer it haw, haw, haw.
If you have a problem with open discourse and good humor, or the honest questioning of materials and applications, or the solution to the matter under discussion here, you may want to abstain from entering the dialogue since your comments contribute nothing to the solution or to civil conversation. Otherwise, I look forward to working with you and the members of the board to help advance the fine art of shooting BPCR's more accurately and effectively.
Now have you boys come to any conclusion or consensus on what the formula for a BP lube designed for hot and dry conditions might be? Somebody that knows way more than I do please throw one out for consideration. Montana Charlie, you are not shy and you know your stuff. What do you think might be a possible formula? Should the carrier be bees wax or canning wax parrfin? Any of you other guys have an idea? Martinibelgin what about it? Felix? I know you know something to help here. If so, throw it out and I'll make some of it and try it, then report back here how it worked. I'd do it on my own, but it is obvious that I don't have a clue and that is why I am here trying to learn about this stuff.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
There has been a proposed solution for that. Search for threads with "lanotec" in them. I have tried to get some from an Australian member, but have not concluded talks yet. I also now have family in Australia that I have contacted about this.
Lanotec - which basically is Lanolin - is the other main ingredient in my bullet lube (lanolin, of course...). Unfortunately, Belgium being hte country it is, hot and dry is something we rarely - if ever - experience here! But the stuff works to my satisfaction, so...
Black Prince, I think that you misunderstood what I was trying to say. You questioned soy wax and Wills came up with the websites that would head one in the right direction. There was absolutely NO negativity intended in my remarks. It just tickles me how Wills comes up with these websites and post them with so little comment. That was my attempt at humor. I thought that you really were wondering were to get soywax.
Beleive me no one would like to see a lube that would answer these questions more than me. While I'm not as far south as you, it still gets plenty hot here in the middle of the summer. I am here to learn like many other folks and contribute when I have something that I have first hand knowledge of.
I'm sorry that you took my response as being negative but beleive me I am the last person that you will ever see, post an intentional negative comment on this or any other forum. I was brought up so that if you didn't have anything good to say keep your mouth shut. Life is to short to be in a pi$$in contest over my hobby.
Bob
Black Prince
There is a BP lube that was made for high temp and low humidity conditions.
It is called NASA lube and is available from the bull shop. Link at bottom of page. Do a search for the nasa lube test report somwhere in our BP forums here. Check it out, might be just what ya need.
bic/bs
It's hard to describe the relief I felt while reading your most recent post, Black Prince. I had been afraid that your erudition had (somehow) abandoned you.
Now, I understand that you were simply havin' a bit of fun.
Shy? Not me... Know my stuff? Debatable (depending on subject)...
I, too, am no 'lube engineer'.
I have only made one batch of lube in my life, and it was just an attempt to duplicate SPG. I haven't even tried it, as I still have SPG in my luber.
I have a generous sample of Bullshop's NAPA lube and a half-stick of White Lable BPCR Supreme, which I have not yet tried. Perhaps one (or both) of them will fill the bill for a hot/dry lube when those conditions are seen here. Our past winter was disappointingly dry, but not hot.
The best reputation I have seen for a hot/dry lube is the White Lightning from Dan Theodore. But the lube is somewhat expensive, and a little difficult to come by. Add the fact that it is only packaged in one-pound tubs (which weigh 14 ounces) and you must buy two at a time...it makes a guy spend $60 plus shipping, just to try it.
I (and perhaps many others) would love to know the secret recipe, but Dan has done a good job of keeping that to himself.
I do keep my ears (eyes) tuned for any inadvertant hints about the formula...
When Kenny Wasserburger mentioned that White Lightning does not use a beeswax base, I popped out 'soywax' simply because I had heard it mentioned (somewhere) in a lube discussion...and it's the only wax other than paraffin that I've read about being used in lube. I hoped mention of it would generate a discussion (by knowledgeable individuals) which would further my 'economic espionage' attempts...since there is no 'patent expiration date' to wait for.
Heck! I even posted a question on another forum to get DanT to share his thoughts on waxes. He is very forthcoming on other subjects, but he didn't respond to the wax thread...and I can't blame him for that if 'any honest answer' would mean spilling the beans.
However, Black Prince, I would remind you of the recipe I posted earlier in the thread.
Having some faith in DanT as a 'lube engineer', I'd bet that his 'old' formula will make a pretty good Global Warming Lube...but I have not tried it.
Here is something all of you can note for future reference...
If I ever do discover the secret for White Lightning, I will not advertise the fact publicly.
But, if I ever post a lube formula named Lost Dutchman, you should try it...
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
I am no longer active in the Black Powder Cartridge game (schuetzen bench rest has claimed me).
However, I still have ties to some serious and VERY successful BPCR shooters, both silhouette and long range. Understand one thing up front, there is indeed more than one way to skin a cat:
A very popular practice today is to use a rather common and available lube (SPG, Pioneer, or Emmert's Home Mix, original or modified, etc) and then simply wipe the bore in between shots. If you go about it correctly, it is no harder than using a blow tube and IS more effective.
A close friend, who placed well at both Silhouettes and Long Range at Raton this year (as well as several places elsewhere) pre-prepares patches by soaking them in a mixture of NAPA water soluble oil and water (I believe 10 water/1 NAPA oil). He then takes a stack of patches, puts them between two boards and squeezes all excess out of the patches. He then puts them in an air tight jar (the jar that Tucks "butt wipes" comes in is ideal. The patches, after preparation, are damp, NOT wet.
After each shot, he pushes a single patch through the barrel and lets it fall in front of him (cleans up after the match). Loads and fires the next one to repeat ad finitum. No dry patches, no cleaning, just "Shoot and wipe, Shoot and wipe". This works equally well in the most moist of weather to the most dry of weather. THAT is what a LOT of the BIG BOYS are doing. No secret ingredients, no horrible expense, just a plan that WORKS. The shooter has a barrel with absolutely consistent "bore condition" no matter how many shots he fires.
I offer it to you free of cost...
Dale53
Dale
Did you see my question about Texas Mac? Do you know how to contact him about his Browning BPCR book? I want a copy if it is ready.
Well now Boz, I had hoped that you were just joshing me because I appreciate humor more than you know since most people seem to have little of it now days, but I wasn't really sure what you meant. Like I said, I am just trying to learn stuff here and because this board has a lot of sho-nuff BPCR shooters who have been there and done that and have the scar tissue to prove it, so I like to hang out here. Well that, and many of these guys are older and have some life experience that we have in common. That in itself usually helps take the edge off because we don't have anything to prove anymore.
I haven't been around long enough to know how Wills does, but you are right, that approach is funny and more than that, it is INFORMATIVE. I appreciate it and I looked at the reference sites he posted.
I have SPG lube and a brick of White Lightening that I got when I bought a Browning BPCR from a fellow in Texas. I am still using some Emmerett's I made up a year ago and have not tried the other lubes, but I'll do that and let ya'll know about them. I can tell you now that BOTH of them smell like bees wax to me and I have absolutely no doubt that the SPG has a lot of it in the formula.
Frankly, if either one of them is satisfactory, I'll just use them because I'm old and retarded now and I can afford to buy a little bullet lube. I don't do much, but I am TRYING to learn this BPCR business just for fun. It's about all this old fart can manage to do anymore except come here and chat with you boys. Ya'll have no idea how much I enjoy being able to do that and be a part of this group.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
BP same here. I just wish that I had discovered this stuff back when I could still see worth a damn.
Bull Shops lube looks like it has potential but I go the first batch back in Nov and haven't had a chance to try it in hot weather yet. I was really impressed with it in my 38-55 that I used this last deer season. There was a noticeable improvement in group size, but that was only at 100yds. I'm not opposed to trying my own stuff though if it works. It is a character flaw that I just have to try to do everything for myself. As I get older though I am less inclined to do some stuff like working on my own vehicles, have trouble finding the engine.
Bob
I have a Sharps (Taylor/Armi Sports replica) 45-70 and a Browning BPCR 40-65. I have toyed with getting a 38-55, but all I know about them is that the people I know that shoot NRA rules matches where they have to knock down the steel chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams say that the 38-55 will not take the ram down with any consistency even when it makes a good hit because it does not have sufficient energy.
What has been your experience with your rifle? What kind of rifle do you have and who made it? I'm looking at the Uberti highwalls and thinking I need one in 38-55. My idea is to use it to shoot the chickens and the pigs and then switch to one of the heavier cartridges for the turkeys and the rams. Do you think the 38-55 cartridge loaded with a heavy bullet would suffice for that purpose?
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Just a short comment to add.
I used to shoot quite a bit of black powder - both muzzleloader and .45-70 cartridge - and used Valvoline PB wheelbearing grease.
I know this seems to defy the no petroleum rule but I used to shoot all day without cleaning. This wasn't formal target shooting competition but the guns always seemed to be competitive both for plinking and for shooting paper, gongs etc.
The muzzle loader was always cleaned with hot water but I never had trouble pushing the first patch down to start pumping and in the Marlin 1895 I pushed a patch through and got soft black mud on it then carried on as usual with solvents and patches.
While I can't say that this would produce the match accuracy some of you are looking for it did keep the fouling soft without "crusty" build up.
The bad part - I wiped it on by hand because it is a soft wheelbearing grease. Maybe it would be worth trying mixed with beeswax, paraffin or some other thickener.
Just a thought.
The 38-55 is a C-Sharps 75 with a 15 twist barrel and it shoots the Lyman 330gr bullet very well. My other gun is a C-Sharps Hiwall in 40-65 with an 18 twist. I haven't been able to get it to shoot anything heavier than the 350gr RCBS boolit. The club that I shoot the most with, we only have to clang the targets since they are hanging by chains.
I haven't had any trouble with the 40-65 taking down the Rams even with a low hit. I have seen several people shoot the 38-55s in competition and they weren't having any problems, but I have heard that with a head wind it can be a problem. Pretty much depends on the weight of the bullet and the twist. I haven't shot that many regulation matches though.
It looks like you guys had a good time down there in MS. Were in the state was that match held. It might be something to look at next year.
Bob
10 shots in under 5 minutes....group was a ragged hole that measured 1.59" at 100yds. 3" groups at 300yds. Hot dry conditions or cold...it works. No blow tube...no wiping...no problem. NASA is the stuff you guys keep dreaming about.
Oh yeah, cleanup takes just a couple patches and is a snap.....................
SS
NRA Life Member Since 1981
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington
II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."
Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Which lube are you referring to?
NASA, Bullshops creation.
SS
NRA Life Member Since 1981
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington
II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."
Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Read the tests by SS, on NASA lube.
Now dont anyone get in a dither or ticked off and thats not my intention to start some sort of Peeing contest. And that is not my intent of this post.
Testing in RH's of 50% is not a lube test. With that kind of humidity any and I mean any lube will work. Sorry to me thats just not a real test of the lube. To me a real test of lube is RH's of less then 15% say as low as 7% ? thats dry! and if the air temp is over 90's you in trouble period.
As Dale53 mention, and I can confirm at Phoenix last week EVERY ONE Was wiping between shots with a soulution of water and water soluble oil. No lube will hold up to 7% humidity and 94 to 98 deg temps. The barrels get so hot that no moisture will be able to mix with the fouling it just cakes to the consistancy of cement. Wiping is the only consistant way to go no mater the temp or Humidity as Dale mentioned.
Cranking off 18-20 shots in less then 30 mins at long range in those temps is torture in the extreme!
I will keep looking for reference to this lube in Raton Nationals finals, as mentioned in the web site.
I personally know all of the top ten Creedmoor shooters at Raton this year not a single one is using this lube, that does not mean it wont work. But its not listed? at least 5 of the top 10 were using Dan T's White Lighting lube. At this level of competition only the best lube or components will pass the muster and make it to the nationals Top ten list.
2 years ago at Raton I wiped between shots due to the higher temps, I used the Wyoming bore Dawgs of Jim Terry's and a dry patch behind the bore dawg. This past year in 2006 I just blow tubed between shots. The lube gets a real work out with a load that dumps 106 plus grains of powder down the barrel with each shot. As many of you know i shoot a 45-110 in long range, this cartridge will most certainly put to the test any lube made. I have tried over a dozen lubes the past few years in testing, all work as long as the humidity was over 30% every single one. SPG, Black Magic, DGL, Dick Hanson's lube, Several home made lubes of varrious shooters, Montana lube, Lee Shavers BP Moly. Every single one of these lubes failed at less then 20% humidity in the 45-110, most hung in with the 45-70 till down to 15% humidity. I kept a hydrometer for many years and lots of folks know how nuts I am bout keeping records.
Most of the lube's mentioned in this tread, and the shooters who are swearing by them live in much more humid areas then Eastern Wyoming or Raton. With avg rain fall of less then 13 inches its dry here most of the time, I believe the lubes all mentioned do work well in your areas, so please dont think I am casting doubts on your honesty. I do think that if you tested your lubes under some of the conditions we find here in Wyoming or Northern New Mexico you may find your Vonderbar lubes to let you down in a big way.
What i would like to see is some test data on this lube at say 12-18% humidity and say air temps in the 80's (often the case at Raton and often drier!).
So just lets say I need to be shown before I would give up on White Lighting Lube. I watched some of the best world class long range shooters foul out at Raton in the world Creedmoor match in 2004 ( me included) one shooter was blow tubing and using a 45-110 and took top score in the teams events and the rest of us fouled out and went to wiping. That shooter Was Jim Terry and the lube was White Lighting lube. I came home got 2 lbs of the stuff and boiled out my lube sizers and have never looked back.
Kenny Wasserburger
KW
But dont it make ya qurious enough to wanna try some?
I understand that if your not seeing BP products advertized in the reguler places and not being used by the reguler croud you reguler fellas dont pay much attention. No matter! I dont advertize in those places because I just dont need to. If I try to generate more business than I have now I couldnt keep up with orders. The only place you will see nasa lube advertized is right here. This is my syber home and all I have time for besides work, which is making boolits and lube.
If ya dont try it I prolly wont notice but if your the kind of fella that keeps an open mind about things you cant deny you may be missing out on something. But if your the sheep type that only follows the flock you wont never find out.
No offence was taken from your post, in fact I agree and no offence was ment by mine.
BIC/BS
It may not have existed when Raton was held.
It was less than a year ago that Bullshop developed his NASA lube, and made generously-sized samples available to members of this forum.
And, even if it was in existence at the time of Raton, those shooters would not have known of it's existence unless they were members here.
If you hadn't joined up last December, you would still be unaware of it's existence.
So, unless you introduce it to those top ten Creedmoor shooters at Raton whom you know personally, it is likely that nobody at Raton will EVER know that NASA lube is available...or how it compares to whatever they use, now.
Back to the thread...
I mentioned in an earlier post that I had posed a question for DanT, hoping he would comment on 'wax'. Well, he has...twice.
His first comment was, "I've tried just about any wax you can think of including Bayberry, Japan, Carnauba, etc., Ad infinitum Ad nauseam. Wax is not important so don't spin your wheels."
When somebody asked for a clarification (of that statement) his reply was, "Based on extensive testing; any wax is a fouling control impediment. Take any wax you like and fill your GG's with it and try to shoot match quality groups, no es possibla."
So there you have it, Gents, from one of the premier 'lube engineers' in BPCR.
Just don't ask me to interpret the comments...
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
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