Cast bullets with copper enriched alloy

[badgeredd]

Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

Bob,

Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped.

Edd

[MikeS]

Another option to get an alloy with copper in it, although being a more expensive method, is something I've been thinking of doing for a while now, and that is to buy some Lyman #1 alloy from Rotometals. I don't know how much would need to be ordered for them to make up a batch of it, but perhaps we could get several folks here willing to split up an order of it so it wouldn't be too expensive for them to do. Lyman #1 alloy for anyone that is unfamiliar with it is: 80%Pb, 10%Sn, 7%Sb, 3%Cu. I would think this would be a good place to start experimentation with a known alloy that is toughened with CU. So is anyone interested?

[45 2.1]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

[madsenshooter]

Another option to get an alloy with copper in it, although being a more expensive method, is something I've been thinking of doing for a while now, and that is to buy some Lyman #1 alloy from Rotometals. I don't know how much would need to be ordered for them to make up a batch of it, but perhaps we could get several folks here willing to split up an order of it so it wouldn't be too expensive for them to do. Lyman #1 alloy for anyone that is unfamiliar with it is: 80%Pb, 10%Sn, 7%Sb, 3%Cu. I would think this would be a good place to start experimentation with a known alloy that is toughened with CU. So is anyone interested?

I use a babbitt, that already has some copper, .25%. Adding pure Pb, copper wick up that my cousin saves for me, and some tin/cu bars that I have should allow me get the Ideal #1 alloy. May be awhile before I get around to figuring the proper amounts though. It will have a teenie bit of As in it too. 3% Cu seems like a lot, but I'll try it. If I remember, I asked Rotometals once and the minimum was 100lbs. Start a group buy.

[Ron.D]

Does anyone have any idea if a soft nose boolit would slump during acceleration, if 2500 was the velocity target? I'd hate to think of it getting ironed into the bore as the body of the boolit passed by. I have a soft nose mold made by Dan at mountain molds back when he was doing them. It's a .358 that weighs in at 234 grs. with about 90 grs in the nose. My thought is to use approx. 30-1 so that it wouldn't harden when I heat treat the whole boolit.
In your search for tin-copper alloy sources, don't forget that a lot of lead free solder is comprised of 97-3 Sn-Cu. When I retired from my plumbing business, I had about 25lbs. in stock, now I'm glad I did. Lead free solder can have a few variations, but Econo-sol and Aqua-sol are 2 among others that are 97-3 and are available at many hardware and plumbing outlets. Ron.D

[357maximum]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

BS..............Your ego overwhelms your memory. The first I heard of it was from Edd and then from Bruce not long after. I am not saying you have not done it as God knows you have done everything thrice and you have the t-shirt to prove it. It is too bad it is such a nice shirt you will not bring it out of storage and show it to others though. When I want to dust a coyote I use a JACKETED TNT hollowpoint and let the buzzards sort out the rest. Boolits that lose any and all integrity when striking flesh have never been my goal. I believe that is what you wanna do from your vast experience shooting things that you wanna shoot....my experiences with only a few hundred deer kills point in exactly the opposite direction from VARMINT boolits.

[357maximum]

Does anyone have any idea if a soft nose boolit would slump during acceleration, if 2500 was the velocity target? I'd hate to think of it getting ironed into the bore as the body of the boolit passed by. I have a soft nose mold made by Dan at mountain molds back when he was doing them. It's a .358 that weighs in at 234 grs. with about 90 grs in the nose. My thought is to use approx. 30-1 so that it wouldn't harden when I heat treat the whole boolit.
. Ron.D

IMO that would depend alot/mostly on boolit design and fit.


Personally I would go another way if I wanted to ensure the nose expanded on smaller fleshy things. I would waterdrop the Cu enriched alloy and then anneal only the nose while the boolit stood up to the crimp groove in a shallow pan of water using a handheld LP torch. I totally gave up and sold all of my softnose combo moulds when I learned of the torch annealed nose trick from BaBore.....it works and I do not have to fum bumble noses around into a hot mould....simple/easy and it works.....why burn your fingers?

These Cu enriched alloys are capable of alot of thrust/pressure even without being waterdropped so maybe aircooling the whole boolit would work just as well....It really would depend on what you was planning to shoot with the boolit.

[badgeredd]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's.Odd that this is the first time you've mentioned babbit in boolits. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You're missing the point...2400 is attainable but we're trying for much higher velocities measured with a chronograph for verification. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy.

Edd

[Dutch4122]

Bob, Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? Yes, I tried both the alloy suggestions your alloy calculator gave. It gave a quite hard tough alloy, it was about the same as two different copper babbit alloys I used in the early 80's. It wasn't quite as hard as the zinc boolits I cast about a year after those. All of them were reasonably accurate considering the stock Lyman molds I had then. They were as accurate as any of the jacketed loads I shot (not withstanding match hollow points put out by Sierra). They all acted like FMJs though... they shot right thru coyotes with little DRT attributes and I mostly lost the fur price because of it. I searched for an alternative before coming on the 50/50 WW and Pb alloy... that solved the problem for me. I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. The route your taking with the big flat nose and increased velocity is the correct one for that hard alloy, and about the only way that normal casters (with the equipment they have) can use to get faster velocities with good killing effect..... although the WD WW/Pb alloy will expand nicely at 2400 fps and kills well to 400 yards. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped. I suggested that alloy to 357 Maximum a little after telling BABore about it (quite some years ago before 357 Maximum introduced us). I know exactly what can be done with it because I believe i'm the one who brought it to this board. I've used it since the late 80's or so.

Gotta call BS on this claim as well. No need to beat around the bush about it.

Also, you seem to have claimed to do a lot of things back in the 80's that you've never proven to the rest of us during our past yearly get togethers; which total 4 different weekends in the last 5 years. During those times and as well as during numerous phone conversations several years ago I don't ever remember you mentioning the use of anything other than 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead as boolit alloy. You did state that you had tried other alloys; but you did not elaborate further. And, you never stated anything to the effect that you had tried copper enriched babbit based alloys; even when Edd was talking about them right in front of all of us as a group.

The thing I don't understand is this; why hold back knowledge of alloys that will work for certain high velocity/pressure rifle applications from your friends who are unknowingly trying to duplicate work that you claim to have done decades ago? All I wanted to do was to get my rifles to shoot like real rifles with cast bullets; not like high powered small-bore handguns. If you had used copper enriched (babbitt based) alloys in the past why didn't you share your knowledge with all of us in 2010 when Edd came to his first get together in Edmore? Mike was shooting his .35 Whelen with Edd's alloy water dropped and attaining velocities with accuracy that I didn't think were possible. Bruce had been using Edd's babitt for a while and had his 8mm 98K with the 22 inch barrel shooting better than before at higher velocity. Even my own feeble attempt to get my stock 1891 Argentine Mauser running to match the original service load worked because of the boolits being cast with a small amount of Edd's babbitt added. How else could I have got the poorly fitting 314299 to shoot that accurately being propelled by a powder (RL-19) that we now know produces a muzzle pressure way too high in that cartridge for accuracy with 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead? I won't even go into great detail about the fact that same boolit, again fit poorly, but still shot like gangbusters out of my Spanish FR-8's 16 inch barrel using a full load of IMR-4007ssc which had to be some serious muzzle pressure.

I guess we were all just supposed to twist in the wind and stumble along a blind path that was copper enriched babbit alloys; wasting a lot of work, time, and money to find out that they didn't work because of some nebulous obscure reason muddied by half truths and riddles. Funny thing is, the proof is on the targets and in the game animals taken so far. And as far as I'm concerned, betting the whole shooting match on EDD'S Copper Enriched Babbit Alloys is the way to go.

Sorry Bob, but I can no longer "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" while the Great and Powerful Oz feeds me disinformation.

[swheeler]

Looks like I got to get a little copper in my alloy, thanks for the info guys.

[45 2.1]

I note that Edds join date is Feb 2008, Matts join date is Mar 2005, Mikes join date is Jan 2006, my join date is Mar 2005. I have 109 e-mails from Mike that give a different story than the BS statement he made given above where he clearly states just who told him the alloy. As for not interjecting something that has already been done and written about for about 100 years..... nobody from Michigan has taken much at face value, all of you had to try it to see if it was true. It does no good to tell you anything until your ready to hear it. Matt, Bruce, Edd... you want to see Mikes e-mails, I would forward them to you.

[swheeler]

sour grapes Bob

[45 2.1]

Bob,

Have you tried mixing up some alloy with the babbit I gave you to try out? I suggest you mix some to try with your guns to see if you might have a different opinion based on actual personal knowledge. You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped.

Edd

WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy.

Edd


OK, not having the multi quote working correctly is a pain, but here goes. Edd, you said " You'll be surprised what happens with a balanced alloy using COWW and pure lead, water dropped." in the last sentence of the first quote. In the second quote you say " WW cut with soft lead does not yield a balanced alloy." I would be interested to know three things: 1) which statement you said is right to you, since you posted both? 2) Just when did you tell (Month and Year OR pre or post join, Feb 2008, date on your data) Mike about 50/50 WW/Pb alloy? 3) Why is your join date about 2 1/2 years after this forum re-uped.

[45 2.1]

sour grapes Bob

Hey Scott........ your always welcome to discuss it on Accurate and not clutter this board up... that is IF your able.

[357maximum]

Bob

Please feel free to post any and all emails you have from me PUBLICLY...you have my public permission iffin ya answer one itty bitty question publicly.

Why the h*** would you store old emails from someone that considers/considered? you a friend? I know the emails are old as you have not typed or talked to me since I razzed you in person at my shoot this spring about your super duper speedy and accurate 2400+ fps 25/06 loads that only did 1900 when run over a chrony.


At this point I will publicly apologize to the rest of the membership here for letting something that should have been private into the public....I honestly felt I had no choice but to call a spade a spade. I apologize for my character flaw.


With that out of the way can we keep talking about Cu enhance alloys now?

[swheeler]

I don't have much to do with the Arab's site anymore, that's you and your sidekicks hangout, pretty dead as I see it anyways. I can get all the facts I need about this alloy right here from the guys that know, Mike, Matt and Edd. Thanks for the offer though, much appreciated Bobby.

[357maximum]

3) Why is your join date about 2 1/2 years after this forum re-uped.

Believe it or not Bob....I was working alot/ just living and doing my thing as I have always done....there are other things than the internet and the associated gurus that come with it. One can melt lead away from the keyboard and without the computer on.....I have seen it done in fact.

[357maximum]

Mike about 50/50 WW/Pb alloy? .

Bob

Are we still talking about Cu enriched alloys here?......I think we are on different pages. Yes you did recommend the 50/50 pure/ww to me and it works great to a point ....that is not what we are discussing on this thread. We all know what that beatiful alloy does and where it fails.....we are trying to get beyond that with some extra tin and copper.....have you hit your head recently?....truly concerned for your well being there chief.

[45 2.1]

Bob

Please feel free to post any and all emails you have from me PUBLICLY...you have my public permission iffin ya answer one itty bitty question publicly.

Why the h*** would you store old emails from someone that considers/considered? you a friend? I know the emails are old as you have not typed or talked to me since I razzed you in person at my shoot this spring about your super duper speedy and accurate 2400+ fps 25/06 loads that only did 1900 when run over a chrony.


At this point I will publicly apologize to the rest of the membership here for letting something that should have been private into the public....I honestly felt I had no choice but to call a spade a spade. I apologize for my character flaw.


With that out of the way can we keep talking about Cu enhance alloys now?

Yahoo stores them nicely in folders without too much help from me. The real answer should be obvious to you........... and Post #33 was directed at Edd, not you.

Enough of this on this thread, you all know how to use e-mail or PMs.

[357maximum]

Yahoo stores them nicely in folders without too much help from me. The real answer should be obvious to you........... and Post #33 was directed at Edd, not you.

Enough of this on this thread, you all know how to use e-mail or PMs.

Bob

The real answer is painfully obvious to me....I was just seeing how well the transmission lines into the new bunker your digging were working....not too good apparently.


not only do I know how to use email and pm's... I also know how to dial a phone.....that does require someone on the other end to pick it up and answer it though....ain't figgered out how to make someone put down their shovel and do that however.

now on with the show.................thus far tonight we have learned that Wd'ed 50/50 = good and that adding a bit of tin and copper to the fray make it Mo' Betta........am I keeping up with the curve?