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Thread: Corrosive primers vs black powder

  1. #21
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    If you are trying to free the firing pin from rust, use the reverse electrolisis method.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Do not shoot much surplus any more but some BP I have used 1 pt. water, 1 pt. hydrogen peroxide, 1 pt. Murphy oil soap. works as a wipe at the range for BP or corrosive ammo until I get home and boiling water, then oil never had any rust.

  3. #23
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    Once again, DO NOT PUT HYDROGEN PEROXIDE IN A FIREARM!

  4. #24
    In Remembrance



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    Tell me (again?) why Hydrogen peroxide is a problem for cleaning black powder fouled barrels. Many of the Civil War reenactors pour their barrel about half full with peroxide and slush it back and forth to field clean. It appears to do a much better job of desolving fouling than soap and hot water. The barrel gets quite hot to the touch but a few dry patches and the bore is clean and dry (as compared to a dozen or more using regular methods). I understand that it is an oxydizing agent, but if dried out and oiled would the bore be harmed? Is the standard "pharmacy grade" peroxide that bad?

  5. #25
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    Hydrogen Peroxide is NOT a problem when used in conjunction with Murphy's Oil Soap and Rubbing Alcohol (Friendship Speed Juice is one pint of each). I fill my muzzleloader up (after sealing the touch hole or nipple), let stand 10 minutes and then pour ALL of the junk out of the barrel. Then a couple of wet patches with the same cleaner. This pumping action sprays entirely through the fire channel chemically cleaning it. Then a couple of dry patches and then I use Ed's Red or Break Free to preserve the bore. After several years of this, when competing in muzzle loading matches at Friendship and elsewhere, I had occasion to remove the breech plug in my rifle. Even the bluing in the fire channel (between nipple and bore) still had the original bluing in it without ANY pitting, etch. Bore is perfect.

    I had Bill Knight, Organic Chemist and Black Powder Consultant for the Industry, run tests on Speed Juice. He stated that it is NOT a problem and works MUCH better than plain water (the peroxide actually dissolves the "clinkers" that plain water will not touch. Hundreds of guys at Friendship use Speed Juice (we all mix our own) without problems.

    It IS a good idea to revisit ANY rifle or pistol that has been fired with black powder or corrosive primers a couple of days later with a couple of wet patches of Ed's Red or other GOOD corrosive cleaner JUST IN CASE (the army has LONG insisted on this practice).

    Now, I am NOT a chemist but Bill Knight IS and has long experience with black powder, so he approves its use in e-mails back and forth to me and that, coupled with my personal experience at Friendship and elsewhere, is good enough for me.

    Using ANY solvent with black powder or corrosive primers it is necessary to carefully dry them and PROPERLY use a good preservative afterwards. I find it very helpful to remove the nipple after cleaning to allow free circulation of air through the muzzle loader to make sure any residual water (speed juice is one third water) dries completely. This is just a precaution that I learned at that old "Craw Dad Hole" that is Friendship, IN.

    Dale53

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy Doug Bowser's Avatar
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    Best cleaner for corr primers and BP

    For the last 5 years I have been using Murphy's oil Soap for cleaning BP and corrosive primers. 1/4 cup Murphy's Oil Soap Concentrate to 1 gallon water.

    This cuts BP fouling better than anything I have ever used. I have been shooting BP firearms since 1957. When I clean the Sharps, two saturated patches and follow with clean patches until they come out clean.

    I shoot Bulgarian 7.62x54r ammo in my Finn M39. Swab the bore with MOS, then dry the bore. Clean with Hoppe's #9 with a bronze brush and use patches until they come out clean. I always let the rifle set for three days and if the bore looks dusty, I would repeat the process. I have never had to clean the M39's bore twice.
    Doug Bowser
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
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    Smile

    Murphy's Oil Soap is also what I use, just because I had it handy in the basement where I clean up.
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  8. #28
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    It's nice to see I'm in good company with the Murphy's Oil Soap in cleaning up corrosive salts. Ricochet and Doug seem to know a thing or two when it comes to the old salts!

    Bruce

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy Doug Bowser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce drake View Post
    It's nice to see I'm in good company with the Murphy's Oil Soap in cleaning up corrosive salts. Ricochet and Doug seem to know a thing or two when it comes to the old salts!

    Bruce
    Ricochet, I am speaking for more for myself but I think we are the old salts. I remember the DCM selling .30 M2 Ball SL43 ammo for $12.00 per 400 round .50 can. It was very accurate but corrosive. I wish I had MOS solution back then. There is no need to add ammonia, Windex or Hydrogen Peroxide to MOS cleaning solution. It works just fine without the added chemicals.

    I have shot in NRA id-range Bp matches and after 20-30 rounds out of the Sharps .45-70, cleaning the bore with MOS is a breeze.
    Last edited by Doug Bowser; 01-02-2009 at 04:28 AM.
    Doug Bowser
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
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    Smile

    Just got through shooting corrosive milsurp ammo in my PSL with my boy and some of his friends a couple of days ago. Cleaned it out with MOS, hot water and oiled it.
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  11. #31
    Boolit Master northmn's Avatar
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    The reason Hydrogen Peroxide is not recommended is based on its chemical of H2O2. It adds more oxygen to the system to expedite rust. what happens when mixed with other chemicals is another issue. Personally when using water I have found that I almost always get a little surface rust in a BP firearm after setting a couple of days. Reoil and it stabilizes. As to Murphy's Oil Soap. I quit using it sometime ago as it never demontrated any advantages over plain water. Currently been having good luck in BP with antifreeze as in Prestone. It contains some anti-corrosive elements. Hot water expedites rust and I now just use plain tap water.

    Northmn

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
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    Smile

    I've never done any carefully controlled comparison experiments, and don't know how I would. I know that soap gets black gunk off of my hands better than plain water does. I mainly rely on heavy rinsing with hot water (using a can and funnel) to get the corrosive salt out, and use the soap mainly for scrubbing out the black glop. Rinse again with hot water, dry and oil. Pretty much the same as I do with black powder.
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Water alone or with soap is the best for corrosive or black powder residue. However, some folks out in the country are on well water. If your well is like some of these western North Dakota wells, the water is as corrosive as the primers.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master



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    Fascinating thread with good info. For anyone who does not understand the action of corrosive priming, I would suggest that you obtain a copy of Hatcher's Notebook. In my opinion it should be required reading for all who shoot military rifles as it goes into great and honest detail about the research into the problem as it existed from the early 1900's through WWII and beyond. "After rust" in rifle bores was a very serious problem addressed with all kinds of wild "gas occlusion" theories, etc. but no lasting solution was found.

    The cause (discovered by a mining engineer) is simply that a potassium chlorate primer...upon being fired...chemically changes to potassium CHLORIDE. Salt, pure and simple. Hatcher details how any rifle bore, no matter how gleaming, contains numerous microscopic tool mark and the salts are literally blasted into these areas making patch cleaning ineffective at best. The cure? Water, preferably hot and lots of it. I believe he mentioned that being one of the reasons that good 'ol Hoppes was so popular as it has an aqueous base. I could be wrong on that...been a while since I've reread my copy.

    As an interesting side note, I had a dear friend (now deceased) who fought in Italy during WWII then worked for "the company" in Central America during the bananna revolutions in the fifties. He told me that he trained "his boys" to carefully clean their weapons with the one implement that every male soldier has with him at all times......pee down the barrel. Seems there's less salt in your urine than in the primers. Creates an unusual mental picture and gives new meaning to the term "short arm inspection", doesn't it?

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    Anyone know whats in the WWII U.S. Military issue bore cleaner that looks like milk?
    10-x

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerman1 View Post
    I know the mantra for cleaning my flintlock after shooting black powder.What is the correct technique for cleaning ,lets say, a 303 SMLE after shooting corrosive primed mil-surp ammo? Do you just concentrate yer effort in the bore itself,or do you have to "wash" everything that accumulates any soot like the bolt face,mag feed rails,etc?
    In the main, just treat it like it was BP piece,

  17. #37
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    Cleaning the bore.

    I read of an interesting method of cleaning a bore just recently, I think it was in the BPCR or singleshot forum. Sorry but can't find it again for attribution.
    That guy said he uses a Blow tube and blows a couple of MOUTHFULLS of water through the bore prior to patching it. That stuck in my mind as a very portable way to clean a cartridge rifle. This may be old hat to some of you but is the first I have heard of it. Ought to work well.



    Life is good

  18. #38
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    I mixed 50/50 antifreeze and distilled water. I've been using this for years. Water is great but antifreeze has a built in rust inhibitor and it still cleans really well.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master
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    vernz----you might put your block in a cleaned out can, filled with Kroil above the block and put hat can in an old pot partially filled with hot water. Maybe get the Kroil hot, it might penetrate better.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy yodar's Avatar
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    Kordite affects the throat

    Quote Originally Posted by rugerman1 View Post
    I have a related question,
    Would corrosive primers and cordite as used in British military ammo in the early to mid part of the 1900's affect the throat any more than the bore? I have a SMLE with a nice leade/throat but a little pitting about 4 to 8 inches down the bore.Trying to get a grasp on why the throat is better looking than the bore itself.
    Cordite Burns VERY hot is noted throughout history as a erosion maker in area right ahead of the chamber and most war-used Enfields suffer from their own ammo.

    Many cast bullet users cast as large as .315 for their Enfields

    yodar

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check