Almost 45/70

[Idaho Mule]

Got the dies ordered today from ch4d, NOT cheap. At least they are on the way tho. CDOC, I have already thought of the COW fireforming method and figure on trying that with a couple of rounds to see what happens.I wonder if I should neck the 348 up to .430 and fire a cast boolit?? .452 boolit?? What would the experts do here?? The one case I did just neck up was in steps. 348 to 358 to 410 to 452. Sure made it look ugly for a bit there, kinda like a snake swallerin' an egg but it came out ok I guess. Will definitely need final fire forming. Also gotta get in touch with C.B. but he ain't answering his phone. He will call me one of these days tho as he is Hunter Ed. leader and wants me to teach again this year. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

C.B. lets the messages build up until it won't take any more and no one can get through on his phone.

Have an interesting tale about OLD primers when we talk.

Can also supply some boooolits. Have some RCBS .405gr and LBT 355gr, both gas checked and sized as I recall about .459.

I won't be using them and your welcome to them for fireforming if you can use them.

If not, I'll melt them down and the gas check will be wasted.

I don't have either of the molds now as I've gone with the 465gr WFN and see no reason to be changing any time soon.

If your thinking about the chamber cast, it was just garden verity sulfur he was using.

CDOC

[Idaho Mule]

CDOC, Thanks!! would definitely be interested in those boolits. Yes, I know about C.B. and his phone. I got the nice privilege of being called in to work today. Made for a long day but should help paying for a set of dies. JW

[Ed in North Texas]

I'm sorry I didn't get to this thread sooner. To hopefully help someone save some cash, I'd like to remind folks that BTSniper will order CH-4D dies with a discount for Cast Boolit members.

Idaho, good luck with that RB. I love those I have - the first one bit me with the Black Powder bug (though I haven't given up on less aromatic propellants in my newer firearms).

Ed

[Idaho Mule]

curator, thanks for your help. As close as I can measure, my barrel slug is measuring right at .463. From the info I can find, I want a bullet weighing between 385 gr. to 400+ gr. to get the proper length. I believe as they were loaded in Viking land they were shooting about 385 gr. I have another quandry tho. Upon measuring some brass today, I find the case head, just above the rim, measures about .515 for the 11.7 x56. My .348 brass is measuring right at .545. That seems like quite a bit of smunching to me. CDOC has recomended Imperial sizing lube to me but I wonder if that will be slick enough to swage those cases down that far?? I reckon I will try it and see what happens, wont be the first time I drove a round peg thru a square hole. Thanks again for the help. JW

[Chicken Thief]

Dont do it!
Use 45-90 with the rim trimmed slightly.
No huss no fuss.
If a 45-70 reamer has been there then no need to trim the rim.
Over 3-5 BP shootings the case will swell around the base and fit wil be perfect.

Here is a pic to show the minute differences
Top is a standard 45-70 case
Middle is a converted and fireformed 45-70 case
Bottom is an original case from 1914



If y'all wants to spend big bucks who am i to argue, but you just might save a bunch by trying it with a 45-70 case first.

PS. I havent got a sizing die at all!
With BP theres no need.

[Roundball]

The bore on my Danish RB was slugged and sent off to a gent who would measure and keep slug if SASE was enclosed. It turns out the grove diameter was .464. It was possible to use the Lee 405gr. HB bullet to make usable reloads with brass from Huntington Die. This was some years back and the brass was a closeout. Used C&H dies who confirmed that there was a multitude of chambers in these old guns. Used 5744 data for 45-70 and got good accuracy. Did not proceed beyond the point of getting the rifle shooting.

[curator]

Buffalo Arms offers the correctly sized "11.7X51R" (or X56R if that is what you have) brass for a very reasonable price. Using .45-70 or .45-90 cases guarantees the "bulge" forward of the case head. In the old days (when correct brass was not easy to find) we all wrapped plastic electrical tape around the case heads on .45-70 brass and made do. That pretty much worked but case splits were common. Why not just get the right stuff to begin with? I have had my "11-7X56R" (Buffalo arms) brass for several years. I do not resize, only replace the primer and reload with close to groove diameter slugs over black powder or SR4759 and Cream of Wheat filler. Cases seem to last forever, unlike my improvised .45-70 brass. Done this way, you don't need any dies, just a way to de-cap and reprime.

[Idaho Mule]

Thanks again to all that have replied. For all reccomending 45-70 or 45-90 brass I don't feel comfortable with that method because my previous experience with this rifle has proved to split 3 out of 5 shot--- that's pretty high loss. I will go with reforming 348 brass I believe because the base (not rim) should be able to be swaged down to fit my chamber. THAT is what I need the dies for. If the 348 rim is too large in diameter it should be nothing to turn them down to fit. I am hoping for, as curator and others suggest, to not have to re-size (other than neck) once cases are finally formed. Ed, wish I would have known that sooner but what is done is done, I do appreciate the info tho and will remember. JW

[Chicken Thief]

Thanks again to all that have replied. For all reccomending 45-70 or 45-90 brass I don't feel comfortable with that method because my previous experience with this rifle has proved to split 3 out of 5 shot--- that's pretty high loss. I will go with reforming 348 brass I believe because the base (not rim) should be able to be swaged down to fit my chamber. THAT is what I need the dies for. If the 348 rim is too large in diameter it should be nothing to turn them down to fit. I am hoping for, as curator and others suggest, to not have to re-size (other than neck) once cases are finally formed. Ed, wish I would have known that sooner but what is done is done, I do appreciate the info tho and will remember. JW

You will be dissapointed there mate!
That kind of cold brass deformation needs special dies and a hydraulic setup in the 6-8 ton~40000-50000lbs range. If you anneal i suspect you could cut the numbers by half but a dead soft base, kind of defies the whole deal.

[Chicken Thief]

I tried to make/form .30m1 out of .223 and lets just say i split a sizing die and made a mess with a 4 ton setup.

[Idaho Mule]

Gonna have to wait till dies get here, then do some measuring. I am paying attention here Chicken Thief. I do know a very good machinist and if necessary I could have him cut me a custom forming die and smash 'em thru a 20 ton press. This little project could prove to be interesting for sure. Once again I appreciate everyones input. Hang tough and I will keep you updated as she progress's.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Ya, it would be a shame to let a barrel that nice set on the wall unused!

And, as good as Imperial sizing wax is, and yes it is good, if you were forming other then at the loading bench where STP is a pit because of how hard it is to clean up, you could use the STP at the press and then just drop the formed brass into actone or laquer thinner which will cut the STP really fast.

Then good HOT water and heavy soap and the brass should be good to go to the next step.

I do not know if the Imperial sizing wax is better then the STP, but know it (the Imperial) has taken care of my forming tasks and is easy to clean. Should do a side by side to see which is the better for heavy forming.

CDOC

[Chicken Thief]

IM i just had a

A "but plug" that fills the primer hole might be in order?
Sizing the case bottom that much might disturb dimentions severly.

[skeettx]

I use a wrist pin from a diesel for my form dies to make 43 Spanish from 348 Win.
Makes the shop press GRUNT!!
Please be careful not to split your new dies
Mike

[Idaho Mule]

Chicken Thief, funny thing happened today, I had that same brain fart!! That brass is gonna have to move and the primer pocket and flash hole is the only place available. Hmmm, and the plot thickens. Then I would have to re-bore the primer pocket and flash hole. Can definitely see why you are so strongly recommending 45-70 brass. Maybe I should saw one of my 348 brass in two, lengthwise, and see how thick the web is and get a better idea. Sheettex, thanks for that hint!! I can come up with a wrist pin with no problem, do you re-call which diesel engine this pin was from?? or did he just machine it to his own specs?? CDOC, keep close tabs on me here as this could be interesting. So far I haven't busted anything and I hope that doesn't happen or I'll have to tell the folks all about a North Idaho brushfit. JW

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Mule,

I still think fire forming is still the way to go!

I'd suggest a duplex fire forming load, sparked by a good and lively Mag. primer behind about 21 grains of Bullseye which should be enough to get the 30 grains of Reddot up and running.

This should produce enough pressure to shove the cream of wheat or corn meal out the end of the barrel, AND closely form the brass to your chamber as well as fill in any voids your origional brass might have, such as primer pockets.

By filling the primer pocket in this way, it should leave a clear mark where the firing pin should be, which will save you the step of center punching before drilling a new primer pocket.

Ya might check to make sure the firing pin remains in place after each fire forming round.

If you find the brass to not have a void free consistancy for the new primer pocket, ya might need to up the Bullseye charge by about 1.3 to 1.7gr. That should smooth out the brass flow just fine.

I'd also recommend using Starline brass as many folk on the forums say it is heavier/thicker then other brass, which would be and advantage during the brass flow part of the forming.

Good possibility the comments about the thick Starline brass are true, considering the quality of info/suggestions/recommendations always found on the forums.

ALWAYS Glad to help a fellow shooter from Ideeeeeho.

Remember, If ya need any more suggestions or some Bullseye, I'm just a phone call away.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

P.S. Mule,

It might be wise to do a chamber case between each of the fire forming loads just to make sure there isn't any unexpected increase in chamber size.

Should that happen, cut your charge of cream of wheat/corn meal by about a third ? +/- ?

Ya might need to play with that a bit.

CDOC

[Chicken Thief]

Errr, why not just shoot like normal?
Even at BP pressures the brass will deform and fill the chamber, after all that is what we are discussing right?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Chicken Thief,

The Mule is hearing ya and the rest of the folks, and I am sure is processing all the comments, likely not including my last couple, and working towards a solution.

However, ya may need to give this North Ideeeeho mule skinner a bit more time then regular folk to understand all the loooong words in the advice given.

Keep it coming, he's slow but he's hearing ya.

Very Crusty Deary Ol'Coot