Ruger 44 special Flat top Blackhawk

[John Van Gelder]

An interesting thread. I have a flat top .44, and have done extensive research into .44 spl loads. SAMMI specs are low they are aimed at the "weakest link in the chain", there are still a lot of the old black powder guns out there, and the pressures listed for modern .44 spl., ammunition should be safe in those guns.

The rule of thumb with the Blackhawk .45s (large frame guns) is 80% of the pressure (SAMMI listed) for the .44 magnum guns on the same frame. My latest Lyman cast bullet manual does not have any .44 mag., loads above 40,000 (cup), most are in the 38-39K range.
Do the math and that is around 31K.

There was some pressure testing done with the old Keith load and those were below 30K.

Someone said earlier on in the thread, if you want .44 mag ballistics then you should have bought .44 mag., that is the truth.

The .44 spl. is one of the all time accurate handgun rounds, it is an efficient round, you get good performance with relatively small amounts of powder. What your expectations are with your .44 is truly a subjective thing. The flat top Ruger is safe at quite a bit more pressure than the SAMMI specs., for that cartridge.

The standard .44 spl loading is pretty mild, and right at the bottom of what is considered to be an adequate field load, at least in places where one may have to deal with bears.

I live in an area where thare are lots of bears, and have had to shoot on the average about one a year, because the were endangering me or my livestock. In my experience the standard .45 Colt loading of a 255 gr. bullet at 900 fps. is very effective. This is in dealing with Black bears of 400# or less. That loading is easily duplicated in the .44 spl., without getting into areas of excessive pressure.

A note: I have also taken a number of black bears with .38-44 loads, utilizing the 358429 bullet at around 1100 fps in a 4" .357.

The .44 spl., is a exceptionally good shooter, and even with nothing more than standard factory loadings is pretty effective if you do your part. A long time friend of mine killed his first Alaska moose with a revolver and factory .44 spl., loads.

There are loads for the .44 spl., that reach the 1200 fps mark, these are probably best saved for special occasions. I have a link to that data if anyone is interested enough to send me a PM.

Today we have powders, that our friend Elmer did not have, that give better velocity at lower pressures than the powders of days gone by.

What works? For me a 250-260 gr, bullet at 900-950 fps. This is pretty much Skeeter Skeltons favorite load with 7.5 gr., Unique, easily achived with the flat top Ruger with out "pushing the envelope"..

[Rifle 57]

Very good post John.

[44 Special]

Excellent post.

[monge]

Good thread great info! I own both 44sp and 44mags and prefer the 44sp skeeter load accurate and pleasant to shoot!

[DougGuy]

Some comparisons are perfectly good logical reasoning. I don't need to break out the calipers, that's already been done on page one in this thread, and it illustrates perfectly how to go about reckoning the pressure ceiling one could expect to be working with, since Ruger certainly isn't going to publish it.

Medium framed SA revolvers in .45 caliber, convertibles especially, are safe to 23,000psi which is SAAMI .45 ACP +P pressure. That said, the .44 caliber cylinders are somewhat thicker on the outside wall thickness, and pretty much the same in the inner walls, like .001" is REALLY going to make a difference. That would mean the .44 Special cylinder would be perfectly safe with the same 23,000psi pressure ceiling as the .45 which has thinner cylinders. THIS MUCH, we can reliably state, IS SAFE.

As far as exploring how much more pressure would be safe in the .44 cylinder and still have the same degree of safety as the .45, well, at this point it is time to journey over to the .44 magnum and completely abandon any thought as to taking the .44 Special above 23,000psi.

Could you go to 25,000psi? 28,000? Of course, but I ask how much will velocity improve with 2,000psi more pressure over 23,000psi? 50f/s maybe? 75 at the most? Again, too close to the .44 magnum to even waste time with. Could you use the .44 Special case and cylinder to develop a dedicated 23,000psi platform to launch 220gr to 240gr boolits at 1100 ~ 1200f/s and fine tune the loads for group size and have an economical yet still potent .44 Special? This would be a neat project, and a viable one at that.

I am currently doing a similar projject with a medium frame Vaquero or Flattop in .45 Schofield caliber, something that will use less case capacity than the .45 Colt, and should lend itself perfectly to a mid range medium/heavy boolit sixgun. This warmed over .44 Special would be almost the same effort, in a .432" version. I say go for it. There are plenty of good reasons to use a shorter case than the .44 magnum to develop that ground between factory .44 Special loads and the 23,000psi pressure ceiling.

[ejcrist]

For what it's worth, I load the 250 grain Keith boolit over 15.0 grains of 2400 in the 44 Special flat top and get in the low 1,100's. It's a little on the warm side but there's no signs of excessive pressure or anything. This load has been the most accurate so far.

[John Van Gelder]

I am at most a conservative reloader, I mentioned in my post if you think you need to streach the .44 Spl, then it's time to geat a .44 mag. But having said that. I have old loading manuals, with loads for the Colt SAA, that are upper 1100 fps with a 250 gr. bullet. The FT Ruger is stronger than the old Colt's were. Some one, and unfortunately I cannot give a direct reference, pressure tested some of the old Keith 2400 .44 spl., loads and they were right in the 27K range.

Probably safe in the .357 frame .44 Ruger, but I am not going to encourage anyone to go there. Some of the new data for the special is a bit of the "undiscovered country", since I have not been able to find any reliable pressure data for those loads. Any time you step out and exceed what is recommended in the manuals, you are on your own.

My upper limit for my .44 spl. 850-950fps, and acording to the Hogdon data, some interpolation here, that range in pressire is 20K or less.

I am sure that everyone here is familiar with the proof testing standards. Which are someplace around 3x what SAMMI lists as operating limits. Again let me say I can only say "Abandon all hope ye who enter here".

A standard that I feel is more representative of a hand gun's effectiveness is the Taylor formula. All of the big game in North America has been taken with the .357 magnum. With these paramaters in mind. The .357 utilizing the original 1935 loading (158 gr, bullet at 1500fps), rates a 12 utilizing the Taylor formula, the .44 spl., rates a 12 using a 250 gr., bullet at 800 fps.

At the end of the day, no amount of "horse power" will comepensate for poor shot placement.

[MakeMineA10mm]

While the original discussion on page 1 is a couple years old, I note no one ever cited sources. I'll give it a try.

Brian Pearce wrote a very well thought-out and researched article in Handloader 236 (Aug. 2005) with pressure-tested loads broken into 3 categories of pressure, corresponding to the strength of various 44 Specials. It can be found here: http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...%20Special.pdf

The categories were 15,500psi (SAAMI max), 22,000psi, and 25,000psi. Pearce places (real, not clones with unknown heat-treat) Colt SAAs in the middle category (22k). The 25k category is either large-frame guns or 5-shot medium-frames, with thicker cylinders and off-set bolt notches. Neither of these apply to the medium-frame, 6-shot Ruger 44 Specials, so even though they are Rugers, I'd be rather hesitant to go above 22,000 psi.

Interestingly, Ross Seyfried, in an article here: http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/4...0Revolvers.pdf says "30,000 PSI is the limit set by Hodgdon for the .45 Colt in Ruger revolvers, so it is a most reasonable number for the .44 Special." He does not espouse on why he believes this. Is chamber wall thickness of a 6-shot 45 Colt on a large-frame Super Blackhawk the same or less than the chamber wall thickness of a 44 Special on the medium-frame? Ironically, in another part of the same article, Seyfried says, "if you want a 44 Magnum, get one. They make them every day." Lastly, he seems rather casual about the topic, and makes a technical error, saying the SAAMI limit is 14,000. So, since I like my fingers and eyeballs, I'm going more with Pearce's recommendations than Seyfried's in this case.

For me, I'm using 15,500 psi loads or less 95% of the time.

The remainder of the time, for my "heavy" load, I'll be loading my 267gr heavy Keith SWC with: 15.5grs 2400, 15.0grs AA#9, or 17.5grs 4227. These will give about 1050-1100fps which provides all the power I'll ever need without exceeding 22,000psi.

[John Van Gelder]

MakeMineA10mm

A very good article, the catagory two loads are adequate for anything I need to shoot with a handgun. Again my preference is for the 250-255 gr bullet, in the 850-950 fps range.

Just a point here.. The flat top Ruger is also available, in the .45Colt/.45ACP convertable. The SAMMI specs for .45ACP +P is 23,000 psi.

I have an old large frame Blackhawk .45Colt/ACP, and just put my calipers on the cylinder throat, not a dial caliper so it was just a go /no go test, at the setting the caliper would not fit over the throat in my .44spl.

By no means a difinative test and it is probably time to querry Ruger, because untill then we are just p------ into the wind.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Yes, it is interesting that 45 ACP +P loads are up to 23,000 psi, and are presumably safe in the 45 convertible flattop. However, lots of people are commenting here: http://rugerforum.net/ruger-single-a...5lc-45acp.html that 20,000 psi is the limit on the 45s. I find that a curious discrepancy, as I'm sure you do too. (Post #s 2, 7, & 9 are particularly interesting on that thread.)

I think it is obvious Ruger is pretty confident in their heat-treat to even make 44s and 45s on their medium frame, but at the same time, I get a feeling that "20,000 psi limit" on the 45s came from somewhere official (as well as the caution against using "Ruger Only" loads in the medium frames).

Combining that with the history of Ruger blowing up a medium frame 44 Magnum during original development back in 1956, plus Elmer Keith's Colt SAA stories, and I'm sticking with Pearce's Category II loads. I figure the extra "meat" of the 44 cylinder & chamber walls vs. the 45 Convertible's would account for up to 2000 more psi, but probably little to no more. I'm not comfortable going to the 25,000 psi because that's a full 25% over what Ruger says is acceptable on their 45 convertible, and that sounds like a big amount over recommended max (even given the thicker walls).

I'm guessing Ruger won't have an answer if you call them. First, they probably haven't done any testing on the 44 specials and second, there's no "Ruger only" loads published in loading manuals for the 44 Specials for Ruger to have concerns about.

[John Van Gelder]

MakeMineA10mm

I believe that you are absolutely correct. I did some other measurements, and my flat top cylinder is the same diameter as my SAA Colt (clone) , I have some old load data, loads that were published by Paco Kelly, using one of the clones. He was getting 1200 fps using the 225 gr. gr. Keith bullet. He had those loads pressure tested and they were at 20.5K. (Using WW296). This is a bit of apples and oranges, but I think that it is pretty close to your recommendation of not going over 22,000 psi. Many years ago Colt chanbered the SAA in .45ACP, and the upper limit for that round back then was 21,000.

We are plowing the same ground here, but I heartily agree that there is no need to exceed 22K. The velocity increase between the 22k loads and the 25K loads is pretty small. So why subject your gun to the extra wear.

Another note here: I checked my Hogdons Ruger only .45 Colt load data and their limit is 30K. Again for heavy frame guns. The reminder here is that you can get better velocity in the larger bores with less pressure.

I bought the .44 spl with the thought that I would duplicate Skeeter Skeltons old .44 spl load. 250 gr bullet over 7.5 gr. of Unique. Well with in catagory two loads.

Again thanks for the article very good reference material. If you are curious, there are some articles archived at Handloads.com, about heavy .44 spl. loads, the caveat there is that they were shot in a Mod 29.

Thanks again .. J

[John Van Gelder]

Not to beat this to death, but! In this day and age of the super magnums, the .44 spl., is really a breath of fresh air. A very easy shooting round, the flat top Rugers come with the steel grip frame, so the gun has plenty of weight with standard .44 spl loads, the gun is as easy to shoot as the .38 spl., the larger bore guns tend to have less muzzle blast, and if you carry a few of the upper end loads the gun is capable of taking about anything you will encounter this side of the Canadian border. The Ruger .44 spl., has been a long time coming, and I for one am glad the folks at Ruger started making them. Mine is the 5.5" barrel, a favorite length of folks like Skeeter Skelton, still good portability, a bit longer sight radius, and almost as much velocity as the 6.5". Back in another era, the .44 spl was the paramount target round. There are a lot of bullets available in that diameter, there are backyard varmit loads using a round ball, and there are some 300+ gr. bullets that would work well for big game.

.44Spl., if you do not have one you are missing out..

[35 Whelen]

Yes, the .44 Special is wonderful. Since this post originated I have run some of Elmer's load consisting of a home cast 260 gr. SWC over 17.5 grs. of 2400 which netted 1218 fps and grouped in the 6" range at 100 yds. when I did my part. Buy a .44 Magnum if you want .44 Magnum velocities you say? Not a chance. In fact I've never understood the logic in buying a heavy, brutish revolver and loading it down. Makes infinitely more sense to me to buy one of these Flat Top's and only loading it up when "required". My every day load runs the aforementioned bullet 850 fps and my deer hunting load bumps it up to right at 1000 fps. Should the day come where I've killed enough elk with a rifle, I may some day load the Keith load for elk, but not likely.

Elmer casually mentioned blowing up several Colt 45's in his quest for more powerful handgun loads.

I read statements such as this on a regular basis on internet forums. I just finished reading "Sixguns" and I'll admit it took me a while to get through the entire book, I only remember a single instance in which he "blew up" a revolver. It was a Colt SA loaded with #80 powder. He wasn't developing or testing loads when it occurred, rather was participating in some revelry on the 4th of July by firing his revolver in the air. He attributed the incident to a 45 Colt case that was weakened by repeated use with black powder. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

35W

[MakeMineA10mm]

Funny you should mention that, John.

I was thumbing through a couple older magazines and a newer one while waiting for the brass to run through the tumbler to clean up this morning. As I was reading through "loads with such-and-so powder" or maybe "new powders in this old cartridge" type articles, I noticed that a majority of the time, the authors are exclusively commenting on the max loads. Little to no attention to the blander "plinking," "target," or "comfortable" loads. Seems like when a magazine author is reviewing a new powder or maybe a new brand of powders, they HAVE to publish the hottest loads to show that this powder (or brand) is better (or "raises the bar," or "opens new vistas," or whatever) than all the rest. Suspiciously similar to how every time a new powder is released by a company, loads with that powder almost always seem to develop more velocity than any of that brand's older powders...

Seems to me, folks who gravitate toward the 44 Special are not the super-powerful-loads type people. Just as you pointed out, we may like having the option of an authoritative load on tap, but it is a "sufficiently authoritative" load, not something that we hope will dislocate our arm when it goes off. For most of our shooting, let's say our "enjoyment shooting," we like the low muzzle pressure of the big-bore with the low recoil of a moderate load in a somewhat weighty handgun. These Ruger FTs in 44 Spl. are perfect.

At work, we carry semi-autos, and about 2/3 of our officers carry 40s. The muzzle pressure and recoil (especially the muzzle flip) of the heavy loads in a small-frame gun make qualifying challenging. I've been having the officers with difficulty, try out my 45ACP. Large frame distributes the recoil over a larger area. The slight weight increase is almost exclusively in the slide, partially lessening muzzle flip. The lower muzzle pressure from both the bigger bore and the lower max pressure of the loads, and suddenly mediocre shooters become pretty good shots... I've converted over one officer and have another thinking hard about it. The ironic thing with officers is, they think the harder the gun kicks, the more lethal it is, so they want the hard-to-shoot guns from a misplaced psychological thought... It's a huge irony when I think back 25 years ago when I started and everyone thought the 45 was an arm-ripper because we were all carrying 38s back then...

[DougGuy]

I don't know where those guys are getting 20,000psi max from. 23,000psi is SAAMI for .45 ACP +P which the flattop .45 is rated for as well as the New Vaquero (on the medium frame).

According to this thread: http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/vie...9225&start=15. "Brian Pearce has written more recently that Ruger approves the .45 acp cylinder in the New Vaquero/Flattop to plus P pressure of 23,000 psi. He wrote that Ruger verified that pressure rating with him and yet, officially, Ruger says nothing and the internet continues to abound with people arguing pressure limits ranging from not more than 14,000, to 20,000, to 21,000, to (grudgingly) 22,000 and even a few hardy souls who say 23,000 is OK. Since most everyone seems to agree that the edge of safe pressure is somewhere north of 20,000, but not too far north, it would seem that someone would want to actually verify where that edge is. It makes the most sense that Ruger would want to do so, at least to me. I'm sure they have and just keep quiet."

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks for that link, Doug. Yeah, it's a little frustrating not knowing where you're at. One thing we could do is fall back on the good old tried-and-true method of looking for pressure signs and measuring expansion rings on the base of the case to look for signs.

Interestingly, I went back and re-read the Brian Pearce article from 2006 that I linked above, and he mentions that the Ruger 357-frame 3-screw guns converted to 44 Specials by custom gunsmiths would fall into the 25,000psi Category III. I missed that when I posted above. That is an interesting statement, considering this whole question of safe max pressure levels...

I just loaded today some of my 267gr Heavy Keith SWCs to test. I loaded a dozen or so with 15.0grs of AA#9, which should be right below the 22,000psi limit, and I loaded 6-7 with 15.5grs of Alliant 2400, which is slightly warmer pressure-wise than the old Hercules 2400, so I'm guessing it is around 23,000psi. When the snow quits flying and I can get to the range, I'll get some velocities, which will also clue us in on pressures somewhat.

[DougGuy]

Interesting about the converted .357 guns. I wasn't trying to steer this thread to the .45 pressures, the original topic was about the .44 special and how much pressure the flattop can handle, so I used the .45 ACP +P rating of 23,000psi and because the .44 cylinder is thicker, it should be perfectly safe to that figure, and likely to 25,000psi as well but as stated several times already, by the time you get to that pressure, might as well be shooting the .44 magnum.

[Boogieman]

Elmer told of blowing up a 45 colt SAA with a 300gr 45-90 bullet over 35gr. of 3f Black.

[Dale53]

If you want the "real" story, read Brian Pearce's article on the .44 Lipsey Special in the June/July 2009 issue of the Handloader.

I have been a student of the .44 Special for better than 60 years. Elmer Keith's load with solid head cases is 17.0 grs. of 2400 (in Single Action Colts and S&W Model 24's, etc.) is at the 25,000 psi level and is given in the NRA article (I have a pdf of that article). The Ruger is good with that load (as a safe maximum).

Me, my hunting days are behind me and I am quite happy with the Skeeter load (7.5 grs. of Unique behind a 250 gr Keith). However, if I were to be backpacking in bear country like the old days, I would NOT hesitate to run the Keith load (or equivalent with H110) in my Lipsey Special or Talo Special. I have been awakened on more than one occasion in the middle of the night by a black bear in the mountains. A good handgun has always been a comfort.

I have also learned by experience, that a good .44 Special works well on something as small as a cottontail or grouse, too, without excessive meat damage. And-d-d, you do NOT have to shoot them twice. It is extremely good as a general field pistol for most anything needed.



FWIW
Dale53

[John Van Gelder]

I read years ago about Elmer Keith blowing up a Colt SAA, and as I recal that section from his book the case failed and blew the loading gate off. The old folded head cases, were not as strong as the solid head design. When I started off a s a policeman in Alska we were carrying mod. 19 S&Ws, loaded with the old plated Super X 158 gr. bullets, those loads were in the upper 40K range. The chamber walls are pretty thin on the 19.

The flat top Ruger .44 will probably take a lot more than 22,000, but why go there. I have taken a lot of small game using the 246 gr. round nose bullet and there is very little tissue destruction, and the old factory loading is very pleasant to shoot. With a heavy bullet in the 950 fps range the spl. is a good big game load.

Using the taylor formula, the old factory .44 mag load 240 gr/1400 fps rates a 20 the Spl. with 255 gr. bullet at 1150, ( I think that we all agree a safe load) gives a 17.

I guess the point here is how much do you need. A 700 fps .44 spl load surgicaly placed behind the ear of big game animal will produce a more satisfying result than the same animal hit below the diaphram with a .500 S&W.