Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

[edwin41]

hi , ive been reading this post with great interest.
somewhile back i also was experimenting with copper sulphate , but i wasnt trying to get it IN my alloy , but ON it.
when you disolve your coppersulfate in water , mix it with some acid , and put in a piece of copper as an kathode you have a
device that will put on a layer of copper on a given object .
didnt get the right adhesion to the lead bullets though , but when this is sorted out , could it be a more simpeler system for the same goal ?

[Manbeast]

The analyzer is an xrf analyzer used for assay. I am sure that none of the values are transposed, however I am going to do some more testing on various solder, ww and cut jacketed bullets. Mostly for reference and as a sort of standard for comparison. I am also open to analyzing whatever anyone would like.

[swheeler]

The analyzer is an xrf analyzer used for assay. I am sure that none of the values are transposed, however I am going to do some more testing on various solder, ww and cut jacketed bullets. Mostly for reference and as a sort of standard for comparison. I am also open to analyzing whatever anyone would like.

Thanks for the offer. I have some other alloys I would like yested later, much appreciated. Scott

[historicfirearms]

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not a chemist so I need a simple answer. Could I take a bucket of coww that I got from my mechanic friend, and without sorting out the zinc ww, just melt them all down then stir in some copper sulphate? This would make life much easier as I wouldn't have to sort wheel weights.

[badgeredd]

Actually, that is kinda what I plan on doing in a way in the future. The problem of course is you'll not have much idea how much copper you are getting into the alloy since the zinc is an unknown. My intent is to take some contaminated WW lead and use the copper sulfate to remove the zinc. I know it has quite a bit of zinc in it so I figure I won't be loosing anything. Of course I won't have much of an idea as to the copper content and it will not be repeatable in any way.

Edd

[imashooter2]

I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not a chemist so I need a simple answer. Could I take a bucket of coww that I got from my mechanic friend, and without sorting out the zinc ww, just melt them all down then stir in some copper sulphate? This would make life much easier as I wouldn't have to sort wheel weights.

With zinc and steel passing 50% of the bucket content these days, that is going to be a LOT of copper sulfate to remove all the zinc. I doubt it will be very cost effective.

[GabbyM]

Those zinc weights will float to the top with all the clips. Just scoop it all off and set aside. After your pot is to desired lead level. weigh out desired amount of zinc weights then add them in. Turning the heat up so they'll melt. My plan is to add one then some copper sulfate. Trying to avoid the oat meal mush.

I'll be adding my CU into pure Pb. Then mixing 50-50 with WW plus a littel tin. My pot holds eighty pounds so half pot of pure Pb to melt in the CU then WW to top and poor into ingots. Probably use the lid on to melt the zinc faster.

Does that sound about right?

[nighthunter]

I smelt in a wood pellet stove. I made a grate to sit above the burn chamber and set a small cast iron pot on the grate. I have a metal box that sits on top of the pot. The box has small holes drilled in the bottom. I fill the box with COWW or range bullets, whichever I am doing at the time. The lead melts and drips into the pot and the clips and jackets remain in the box. The box is removed and dumped and refilled until I have a pot full. It doesn't take nearly as long to get a pot full as one would imagine.
Today I melted till I had about 8 pounds of COWW in the pot. I put a 1 oz zinc WW into the pot and waited for it to melt. I removed the pot and fluxed the melt. I then put 1/2 cup of copper sulfate in the pot and put it back into the stove. I left the pot in the stove until the melt took on a slight reddish glow and the CS had long since turned white. I removed the pot from the stove and stirred the mix till the CS became a powder again. I then added a good amout of flux and worked the mix with a piece of oak. Poured the melt onto ingots. The result is a mix that took on more copper than doing it in my Lee bottom pour. I tried it this way because of 357Max's post about heating his babbit really hot to get copper wire to melt into his alloy. I think the added heat will be a benefit. I'll cast with it in the next few days and give the results.

Nighthunter

[olaf455]

I tried this method, but my lee dripmaster would not get hot enough. Covered it and let it cook and finally got the zinc melted in and the reaction to happen.

[dverna]

Awaiting further range reports - Tagged for reference

[HollowPoint]

I tried reading through this whole thread from start to finish. I have to admit, I wasn't able to keep up with all of it but it sounds promising.

There are the traditional tried-and-true ways of hardening your cast bullets and the time involved to get them
to that hardened state isn't to much more involved than mixing copper into you mix. If I could get repeatable results
by adding copper to my mix I think I'd rather try this copper alloying method.

Ideally, it would be nice if one of you more knowledable hands-on guys could come up with an uncomplicated and specific
recipie that would give repeatable results.

If you had to guess, how far away are we from reaching that point?

Here's a couple questions that occured to me as I read this thread;

If your bullet alloy contains a sufficient amount of copper in the mix, would this mitigate the need for gas-checks?

Since the copper hardens the bullets, what type of chore is it to size your bullets after they're cast?

Thanks in advance.

HollowPoint

[Doc Highwall]

As Popper above says.

The copper it to help keep the bullet from shattering at high impact velocities for hunting loads.

I am following it for high pressure long range loads 600-1000 yards.

[badgeredd]

I tried reading through this whole thread from start to finish. I have to admit, I wasn't able to keep up with all of it but it sounds promising.

There are the traditional tried-and-true ways of hardening your cast bullets and the time involved to get them
to that hardened state isn't to much more involved than mixing copper into you mix. If I could get repeatable results
by adding copper to my mix I think I'd rather try this copper alloying method.

Ideally, it would be nice if one of you more knowledable hands-on guys could come up with an uncomplicated and specific
recipie that would give repeatable results. I along with a couple others (at least) are working toward that end.

If you had to guess, how far away are we from reaching that point? I really think we'll have some pretty firm recipes within the limits of what we know to be in the alloys. By that I mean, I personally really want to know exactly what is in a successful alloy and just how tight the percentages have to be for it to be reasonably repeatable. I suspect that 357maximum is somewhat correct in thinking it may not be as critical as I might think. But I think the "window" is smaller than he thinks. We're both kinda guessing for now.

Here's a couple questions that occured to me as I read this thread;

If your bullet alloy contains a sufficient amount of copper in the mix, would this mitigate the need for gas-checks? I seriously doubt that, but it may increase the threshhold we accept for plain base boolits.

Since the copper hardens the bullets, what type of chore is it to size your bullets after they're cast? Like popper said, it really doesn't harden the boolit, it toughens the alloy.

Thanks in advance.

HollowPoint

I sure will be glad to see some decent shooting weather here so I can answer some questions...mine as well as others!

Edd

[swheeler]

It has been one month since adding some Cu to my alloy Popper style.
Cu.913%,Sn .781%, Sb1.41%, Pb 88.2%

314-299 H2O dropped
right after pouring 13.4BHN, .3128" on bottom band
48 hrs 17.9
1 week 17.9 .3134"
1 month 19.3 .3143" diameter growth of .0015"

EDIT TO ADD FROM MANBEAST
Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

[runfiverun]

i'm taking the As-, as arsenic and sulpher, just being read as arsenic.
that's a lot of grain refiner.
i don't remember if sulpher is a surface tensioner or not.
but i'd keep an eye out for yellowish dross from it.

[swheeler]

R5R - I don't know if sulfur is detected by the XRF as As or not. As symbol is arsenic, sulfur is S. Anyway that is a lot of As - or whatever.

FRom page ten of this thread..........

Originally Posted by Manbeast
Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89


Manbeast first off I would like to thank you for doing this for all members here.

Sample A- 50/50 coww to pb, this was the 23 penny/copper sulphate experiment that was supposed to yeild a .8% cu alloy

Sample B- 50/50 coww/pb

Sample C- RR babbit that was gifted to me by Edd

Is it just me or does the arsenic % look extremely high, and where the heck does titanium come from in these %.

[swheeler]

notice nearly 5% As in every sample sent

[MUSTANG]

Actually, that is kinda what I plan on doing in a way in the future. The problem of course is you'll not have much idea how much copper you are getting into the alloy since the zinc is an unknown. My intent is to take some contaminated WW lead and use the copper sulfate to remove the zinc. I know it has quite a bit of zinc in it so I figure I won't be loosing anything. Of course I won't have much of an idea as to the copper content and it will not be repeatable in any way.


Edd

I, as I am sure many others, continue watching from the side for definitive results from those with a more dedicated scientific approach to determining process and output; but I have been also dabbling a bit on the issue with about 75 pounds of Wheel Weights alloy heavily contaminated with Zink. Cost of ZEP Root Kill, coupled with a long drive to the store if replenishment is required, caused me to use a combination approach to reclaiming this contaminated alloy:

(1) I heat up 10lbs of contaminated alloy in my Lyman MiniMag pot; No Thermostat control on this one. My Lee Production Pot died last month at the tender age of 35 years, having cast at least 5000 lbs in it's life. Once the contaminated alloy is nice and melted, I scoop the mush off the top and keep skimming until the mush is gone. I am getting about a 15% to 20% reduction in volume that goes into the scrap skillet, to be remelted down at a later date and cast into ingots - I'll figure out what to do with the skimmed Zink and whatever alloy at some future date.

(2) I treat the remaining molten alloy with Sulfur (Ferti-lome brand Dusting Sulfur, bought at ACE Hardware for about $6.00 per 2lb container). Initially, the alloy during the start of this phase has a sharp 90 degree intersection with the side of the pot. I sulfur treat (the sulfur ignites and burns, chars, out gases, and picks up much of the Zink). Scraping the sides of the pot, particularly where the Zink is adhered to the Steel, repeating until the intersection of the melted alloy and the steel sidewall begins to develop that nicely rounded meniscus similar in appearance to water in a glass.

(3) Lastly I treat with the ZEP Root Killer as described in early portions of this thread. The Zink that is still in the alloy, should be exchanged for the copper in the ZEP.

I have cast a few hundred NOE311365's with this remaining alloy and I am getting a harder boolit than with my normal Wheel Weight Alloy's. I am confident I am getting some level of copper into the alloy, but as BADGEREDD points out, no quantitative way to define the resultant alloy. The process I described in (1) through (3) seems to result in the most cost effective means of reducing the Zink from my contaminated alloy, with a useable hard alloy for Boolits.

One day I'll have to add a Hardness Tester to my kit so I can have some sort of quantitative measurement beyond finger nail and pencil lead tests.

Mustang

[leadman]

I worked with some zinc contaminated alloy today. I got it to about 600 deg. and fluxed with sawdust. The sawdust had alot of something that was shiny like melted lead on it so I kept fluxing until no more came out. I increased the temperature to over 750 deg. and added the Root Killer at least 5 times. The dust never returned to white but I was not finding anything in it so stopped. I then fluxed with beeswax and had a real pretty multi-colored flame. Since it was blue/green I think it might be some excess copper??
The ingots look good and "tink" nicely when dropped on the floor. I will cast with ithem tomorrow and hope all is good.

[runfiverun]

sulpher burns off with a green flame that has a blue lick to it.