Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

[swheeler]

Only one with Cu that I have shot was 308, about 3 gr down from max. hodgdon data. That worked fine, posted targets earlier. Going clay busting with a friend today so no casting yet. The .40 test casts I did were with a worn out Lee, need to cast with the accurate mould for shooting. I intend to make small batches of various ratios, cast for the .40, 30-30 and 308 to see what works best for what. Yes, the puppy is still making a mess, but she's only 14 wks and always hungry.

Popper I was wondering about you using the pennies as the zinc source, something similar to what I did to see if you can convert something around 1%. I think maybe Edd was right in that I had more zinc than was soluable in my alloy, that and all the free copper floating around, or maybe I just screwed up the experiment by adding to much CS at once. I did notice in nighthunters post that he isn't converting until CS turns white, I would assume that he still has zn in the alloy although minute amount compared to what I did.

[BABore]

Swheeler,

I had a similar situation as you on the first batch using CS. I used known zinc-free components of WW's, PB, and Edd's babbit. With the mix at 750 F I dumped in the whole lot of CS which should have given me 0.5% Cu. It clumped up big time. I busted it up and stirred it in for 10-15 minutes. It never did look like it went from blue, to white, and then to a light grey. It went from a clump to a dark mud-brown. I tried some flux and all kinds of additional stuff came out. All nasy brown. After skimming and cleaning up the mess I casted boolits and water dropped them per my normal routine. They later tested out about the same 28-30 bhn that I get from 50/50+ Edd's babbit. It didn't appear like I got any additional CU in the alloy.

I later did a second batch where I took my time. With the melt at 800 F, I would add a thin layer of CS and a pinch of citric acid. Had to do this about 8-10 times to get it all in. Each addition went from blue to white, then slowly turned light grey as I broke it up and stirred it in. No additional crud or dross was released. I skimmed about the same volume of powder as the CS I added. The resulting WD booilts tested out at 36+ bhn. Edd has samples of this alloy for testing.

[swheeler]

BaBore thanks for that. So I don't think I got any Cu into the alloy, 1 week after water dropping I get a 17.9BHN, actually less than I get from the original 50/50 I started with. I think I ended up burning all the tin out and drossed out a bunch of the antimony. I have a sample in for testing right now, so the answer will be in Manbeasts results.

[madsenshooter]

What was the percentage of Cu you were shooting for in the 36bhn batch? How much zinc & CS?

[BABore]

What was the percentage of Cu you were shooting for in the 36bhn batch? How much zinc & CS?

I was shooting for a 50/50 WW-Pb alloy with 1.5% of Edd's RR babbit (which contains both Cu and Ni) along with 0.5% Cu from the copper sulfate. I did not use zinc contaminated alloy nor added zinc. I added additional babbit so the CS would rob the tin from it.

[swheeler]

OK, cast some 40 this morning, 1/1/0 Sb/Cu/Sn, I'll load and try to shoot next week. Also did the penny thing. Had to get the pot to ~ 850F to get the penny to dissolve. Got the oatmeal mush on top. A little more heat and it became liquid so I sprinkled CS on top. Took a while but melt turned gold/brown on top. Stirred good and finally got brownish powder dross on top, about the same amount as the CS I put in. This should get the alloy to 2% Cu, 1% Sb. Poured some ingots so I'll cast this later for .308 and see how it does. I've been asked if this method can get a 'sweetener' alloy. I don't think so. The Cu has to alloy with tin, antimony, lead. Any excess is free Cu which probably floats to the top, shows a brown color and gets removed as dross. It doesn't dross out antimony in any way. I like the way it casts, perfect fillout without any tin, even in the beat up Lee mould I have. The TL isn't beat up and they almost jump out. The TC one lost an alignment pin again this morning and the sprue plate is loose so I get flash on the base but they still just take a tap to get out. From 100 or so I got about 5 rejects. Next cast I'll reduce the Cu and see how that shoots in pistol, the alloy works well in rifle.

Popper I though you were supposed to continue with the copper sulphate treatment until it remained white, meaning it had converted all the zinc.

[303Guy]

I've been trying the copper sulphate trick with high tin and no zinc. The dark brown/blackish stuff on top was worrying me so I tried the tinned copper tube trick. That did not work but anyway, I used a gas torch on the copper tube and stuff on top and it melted into a brown glaze looking stuff - not the copper tube. I tried melting it into the metal and some did appear to do so but when I dipped the hot copper tube in to stir the pot, I ended up with a huge brown glazed lump on the tube.

The first cast with this 'new' alloy came out at the same harness the 'old' alloy reached after a week. That could be due to quenching in he mold - I used a Lee mold this time.

The 'calculated' alloy is;
±90% Pb, ±6.8% Sn, ±1.8% Sb, 1.5 ~ 2% Cu

[badgeredd]

I've been trying the copper sulphate trick with high tin and no zinc. The dark brown/blackish stuff on top was worrying me so I tried the tinned copper tube trick. That did not work but anyway, I used a gas torch on the copper tube and stuff on top and it melted into a brown glaze looking stuff - not the copper tube. I tried melting it into the metal and some did appear to do so but when I dipped the hot copper tube in to stir the pot, I ended up with a huge brown glazed lump on the tube.

The first cast with this 'new' alloy came out at the same harness the 'old' alloy reached after a week. That could be due to quenching in he mold - I used a Lee mold this time.

The 'calculated' alloy is;
±90% Cu, ±6.8% Sn, ±1.8% Sb, 1.5 ~ 2% Cu

Do you mean 90% Pb vs 90% Cu? More like 90% Pb, 6.8% Sn, 1.8% Sb, 1.5-2% CU?

IMHO, I believe the Sn is too high as is the Cu, but that is my opinion only.

Are you using the alloy fro GG boolits or PPed boolits?

Edd

[303Guy]

Yes, that would be 90% lead.

These are for paper patching and the idea is to make a stronger base to resist launch deformation yet have enough ductility to expand easily yet hold together under worst case conditions.

I have no way of actually estimating the copper as I cannot tell how much got absorbed. I'm only assuming that some did get absorbed and the change in hardness tends to support that assumption. But the amount of copper absorbed may well be less by a factor of ten i.e. 0.15% to 0.2%. The colour of the alloy does not suggest any copper but then the tin content is high. Interestingly, I found a reference that gave 0.16% copper as the eutectic for lead-copper (the amount that can be held in solution at the melting point of lead).



Here I did the hammer test. It took a number of blows using a 4lb hammer over a thick steel plate to get it this thin.

Prior to the 'addition' of copper, this same alloy was so soft after casting I could bend the boolit with my fingers. They quickly hardened up though.

[madsenshooter]

Trying to bend a long bullet is good test for the alloy's strength, as compared to say a brittle lino bullet which is apt to snap.

[357maximum]

just for the new/uninformed as I know alot of you know this.........First time I did a "hammer test" on a pure lino boolit I hit the boolit slightly off center and stuck 1/2 of the boolit into a piece of paneling leaning in the shop 3 feet away. Be careful beating on "ceramic" alloys...they can become more than stationary projectiles. I am sure it would have broken the skin if it had hit flesh.

[303Guy]

Thanks popper. I doubt my alloy will fly off like shrapnel. It's not brittle, just quite tough. I can still bend the thinnest part of the disc. I bent it back and forth, trying to weaken it but it work hardened and I couldn't bend it anymore! I did have a skew blow on it but it hardly moved of the plate.

[Manbeast]

Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89

[swheeler]

Ok, sorry for the delay. I ended up working later than anticipated. Here we go, all results in percent value and not all minute values given, ie Cd, V, Ag at less than .25%

Cu Zn As Sn Sb Pb Ti
Sample 'A': .913 .117 5.57 .781 1.41 88.2 1.99

Sample 'B' .411 .013 4.97 .981 1.66 89.7 2.01

Sample 'C' .789 .02 5.01 1.26 3.51 86.7 1.89

Manbeast first off I would like to thank you for doing this for all members here.

Sample A- 50/50 coww to pb, this was the 23 penny/copper sulphate experiment that was supposed to yeild a .8% cu alloy

Sample B- 50/50 coww/pb

Sample C- RR babbit that was gifted to me by Edd

Is it just me or does the arsenic % look extremely high, and where the heck does titanium come from in these %.

[swheeler]

Popper it looks like your process works, I still had some zn left to convert though .117%

[badgeredd]

My guess is that some of the percentages are swapped in locations, based on what I know to be true of the babbit. It is a Sn based babbit with very low Pb content. I appreciate the effort but it appears to me the results are not in the appropriate elemental columns.

Can you re-check your results Manbeast for proper placement?

Edd

[swheeler]

Yes, that arsenic looks way high. They could be using range lead, reclaimed shot for the COWW. ManBeast - what device do you use for the analysis?

No range lead or shot in these, brother had 42 years in the tire business, he helped with my ww addiction. The arsenic is high in the tin based babbit too, that 86.7% pb should be sn. Maybe manbeast could check numbers on his end, just a typo?

Edit; the 50/50 coww/pb shows .4% cu

[303Guy]

Curious - I found an old copper alloy boolit (with who knows what all else in it) and tried to trim off the unsupported nose section by rolling it under a sharp knife on a cutting board. It started out well enough but got harder and harder to cut deeper until I could cut no further. This stuff work hardens! It's the same observation I made when firing them into soft sand. They mushroomed perfectly but came out hard. Someone on this board mentioned having made the same observation. This was the same alloy that I could measure the hardening in half hour to hour intervals with water dropping only making about two hours difference. This copper alloy plus all the other grain refiners is awesome stuff!

[swheeler]

No, I meant that possibly the WW company uses whatever they can get to make the WW.

I see, anything IS possible but would not think the As would be that high in the tin based babbit.

[I'll Make Mine]

Titanium in alloy samples likely comes as contamination in refining one of the metals (zinc, as a best guess -- zinc and titanium have similar crystal and chemical habits, so I'd expect Ti to be very soluble in Zn) -- titanium crusher teeth, for instance, might spall off dust sized or larger chips in ore processing (this is how teeth wear, after all). Once introduced, titanium is almost impossible to get rid of; it wouldn't replace in the copper sulfate treatment, at least until the zinc was effectively gone (maybe not then, titanium sulfide probably wouldn't precipitate as long as lead and antimony are present to produce less soluble sulfides -- this assuming the sulfate gets reduced to sulfide by the heat and flux).