Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

[swheeler]

swheeler - check post #57, worked for him.

Popper I did that's where I got the penny idea from. He used pure and I used 50ww-50pb and I used alot more pennies, something turned out different, I wanted a cu rich alloy to use as a sweetener. I just posted the results I got, including the melt turning blue just seconds after adding the pennies, heck I don't know just wanted to try. I did get an amazing amout of dross out of that 9 lbs of alloy, and it took lots of heat to do it and flux.

[Manbeast]

swheeler, i would need a sample the size of a dime or any cast bullet. The cost would be the postage cost of getting it here and back, if you wanted it back. If i can get my equipment out of storage soon, I'm gonna give it a go. Problem is it might be a couple weeks or months.

[swheeler]

swheeler, i would need a sample the size of a dime or any cast bullet. The cost would be the postage cost of getting it here and back, if you wanted it back. If i can get my equipment out of storage soon, I'm gonna give it a go. Problem is it might be a couple weeks or months.

PM sent

[runfiverun]

scott:
let me know will ya.

[swheeler]

scott:
let me know will ya.

I will let everyone know, post it here.

[swheeler]

Manbeast I will send little ingots like this stamped for ID. Thanks

[swheeler]

Manbeast; check your PM's Scoot

[felix]

Great! I'm curious to see what can be done with it. ... felix

[I'll Make Mine]

Felix - found a science experiment that used pepto, aluminum foil and muriatic acid to get bismuth metal.

That's an expensive way to get bismuth even compared to breaking down bismuth shotshell loads. Doesn't Rotometals sell the stuff? Yep, $22/lb, near enough, and has the free shipping "green truck".

[nighthunter]

My dross comes out of the pot as a dark grey to black fine powder. Maybe you need to raise the temperature and work the dross against the side of the pot more. I've found that when I use beeswax as a flux the dark dross turns a sort of chocolate color. I've also found that if I add a lot of the copper to 5 lbs of COWW I can then add about 15 lbs of range salvage lead and still have a good alloy that I have been useing to cast HP pistol bullets. I'm hopeing for good expansion with a greater shear factor for higher velocity. The alloy seems quite hard but still quite malleble. This whole subject of adding copper to the alloy is so very interesting. Someone had expressed the opinion that they felt adding copper would make the bullet act like a FMJ. I have to disagree believing we are makeing the alloy so it will still expand and hold together. I do not understand the thinking that adding copper to an alloy of 50% COWW and 50% PB will turn the alloy into something like linotype. I think antimony is what makes linotype so hard and brittle.

Nighthunter

[felix]

Nighthunter, you are correct. ... felix

[nighthunter]

This isn't going to sound real scientific as I am not a scientist. To 5 lbs of COWW I add 2 zinc pennies. When the pennies are melted I add 4 tablespoons copper sulfate. I work the CS against the side of the pot until I have a fine dark colored POWDER on top of the alloy. I then add 15 lbs of range salvage lead and when melted and up to casting temp I flux with beeswax. This seems fairly repeatable to me. I agree with others on here that repeatability of the alloy is very important. Copper added to the alloy may have been tried and retried in years past but those casters did not have the benefit of this forum to exchange information and ideas of successes they had achieved. I realise we are at just the beginning of our trials of adding copper but I think we will make it work if we keep up the exchange. Heck ..... we might even be famous someday and be remembered as "those old guys" that did it.

Nighthunter

[GabbyM]

Question:

To reduce dross.

What about placing a stove top onto our melt pots to exclude O2. I.E. funnel top with vent pipe. Drop pine chip flux into the chimney.

I use a 5 quart cast iron pot on a propane burner.

Also I've sold off my dross at listed market price for lead dross. Had a five gallon bucket full. At one time that is. Since I used to commercial cast. Unless you have dross that you know is full of tin at $15 a lb. . As Poopers dross is. Then smelting is a huge chore not to mention dangerous . You can not smelt in a pot. You need to first build a furnace then fire it with fuel. Then if you do not know what you are doing you will die. Either quickly or even worst slowly from metal poisoning or cancer. Not saying it can't be done safely . As it is done every day around this world. But you need to know what you are doing.

I'd recomend you all save dross in a bucket. Then when it's full sell it off.

[badgeredd]

This isn't going to sound real scientific as I am not a scientist. To 5 lbs of COWW I add 2 zinc pennies. When the pennies are melted I add 4 tablespoons copper sulfate. I work the CS against the side of the pot until I have a fine dark colored POWDER on top of the alloy. I then add 15 lbs of range salvage lead and when melted and up to casting temp I flux with beeswax. This seems fairly repeatable to me. I agree with others on here that repeatability of the alloy is very important. Copper added to the alloy may have been tried and retried in years past but those casters did not have the benefit of this forum to exchange information and ideas of successes they had achieved. I realise we are at just the beginning of our trials of adding copper but I think we will make it work if we keep up the exchange. Heck ..... we might even be famous someday and be remembered as "those old guys" that did it.

Nighthunter

HECK...Popper and I are already some of those "old guys"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Edd

[savingprivateyang]

GabbyM,
What do you mean by "Then smelting is a huge chore not to mention dangerous. You can not smelt in a pot."? Do you mean, you can not smelt the dross in a pot, or just smelting in general? I currently smelt in a cast iron sauce pan on a propane burner. I'm collecting all my dross so I can extract the lead at a later date. If lead extraction from dross is dangerous, what are the dangers involved? I dont want to die .

[swheeler]

Manbeast; 3 samples of alloy shipped today, USPS. Scot

[MK1MICAH]

Wow! This sure has piqued my intrest. I work for an exotic car dealer and our wheel weights are almost all stick-on's Early in my Lead hoarding phase I kept any and all. Once I got a monster of a pot I smelted them all down into ingots not knowing the exact content of the melt. I now have obtained the MSDS sheets on these and looks like the contain Lead, Antimony,and Zinc and possibly some Tin somewhere. Can I use this method to refine my Alloy while adding strength to the alloy? I have read this thread over the weekend and I am not sure this has all been worked out yet and dont want to waist the alloy on something that doesnt have results! I am so ready to jump on board with this and help out with testing as I cast for .45-70 Marlin FNPB,FNGC,SHPGC,LHPGC which will be easy to see the results with.

[303Guy]

I've been thinking of having a lid arrangement with a small gas flame over the melt to maintain a reducing atmosphere. For a 'smelting' pot I'm planning a gas heated pot with the exhaust led over the surface and out, again to maintain a reducing atmosphere plus adding heat from the surface, or at least, preventing heat loss from the surface of the melt.

[badgeredd]

I've been thinking of having a lid arrangement with a small gas flame over the melt to maintain a reducing atmosphere. For a 'smelting' pot I'm planning a gas heated pot with the exhaust led over the surface and out, again to maintain a reducing atmosphere plus adding heat from the surface, or at least, preventing heat loss from the surface of the melt.

It sounds like a good idea to me to reduce oxidation. It may even help to eliminate some of the noxious fumes that are often present when smelting scrap lead alloys. I know there is a significant improvement when smelting if one adds wood chips and light the resulting gases that come off the melt. Let us know how it works if you proceed with the idea.

Edd

[swheeler]

Tested some 40SW by pounding sized CBs into the muzzle, comparing various mixes of sulfur and copper toughened alloy. Under a 20x loupe, I can see the sulfur hardened breaks off chunks of displaced lead, the Cu alloy (AC or WD) doesn't. I think it was R5R that suggested the Cu to solve this problem (leading in the 40 ) that got me going down the Cu trail. Both alloys started as 50/50 Pb/#2 with shot added. first hardened with S. I converted the 2nd with CS and cut to 75/25 (1/1/0 Sb/Cu/Sn). Both work fine in the 308, no leading but they have GCs. The Cu strengthens the Sb as well as the Pb. The WW I converted was almost as good as the 1/1/0. Got to load the 40 with Cu alloy and give it a try. If the puppy will stop messing on the floor maybe I can make some alloy with the pennys today. Actually the 40 is most accurate (2"@25 & no leading) with 50/50 #2/Pb lubed with peanut butter.

How did it work out?