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Thread: Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

  1. #81
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    runfiverun's Avatar
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    that is funny.....
    have y'all read about the sulpher being used to clean zinc out of an alloy enough to cast with it?
    there might be a cross use as the sulpher will burn as it pulls the zink out of the alloy,
    you could use the oxygen free zone there to help get stuff go into the melt easier.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  2. #82
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    That's the thing Lamar, the copper sulphate is supposaed to exchange copper for zinc, 1:1, no sulpher needed. I am trying to end up with a copper enriched alloy to test, test every way I know, including BHn and what is to be gained in high velocity performance. I will make no claims until I have tried it. I think maybe Edd has the answer and if time is permitting I will add more zinc tomorrow then try the copper sulphate a little at a time until I end up with an alloy I can cast with. What I don't understand is at this time noone can tell me why my melt turned BRIGHT BLUE AFTER adding the 23 pennies, is it the copper in the alloy? Can you tell me?
    Hell, I was there!

  3. #83
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Probably so. I get a blue cast on mine when it cools with only .25% Cu. I can sometimes see it on the surface of the boolits too, but for some unknown reason, not all the time. I haven't tried Popper's method, might be a good idea to follow his advice.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

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  4. #84
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    copper oxide casts a green blue color in the rocks it comes from,and sulpher burns with a green blue flame....
    that blue you had looks like an overcooked smelt job on the old stick-on ww's where the lead oxided,and then throw in the copper which turns more blue.
    you definatly have a heat problem too, there isn't enough to get the zink into solution to make the reaction happen,,,, such as it is.

    shane you got my p.m. i hope.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by madsenshooter View Post
    Probably so. I get a blue cast on mine when it cools with only .25% Cu. I can sometimes see it on the surface of the boolits too, but for some unknown reason, not all the time. I haven't tried Popper's method, might be a good idea to follow his advice.
    OK Bob that helps, I was going back to chemistry 101 and burning copper, blue. I will mess with this pot of alloy more tomorrow, hoping the guy that put 8 pennies in coww would ring in and say if the pot turned blue after adding the pennies. I guess it is possible that my pot gave up the ghost exactly at the time I added the pennies to the melt, but I highly doubt it.
    Hell, I was there!

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    copper oxide casts a green blue color in the rocks it comes from,and sulpher burns with a green blue flame....
    that blue you had looks like an overcooked smelt job on the old stick-on ww's where the lead oxided,and then throw in the copper which turns more blue.
    you definatly have a heat problem too, there isn't enough to get the zink into solution to make the reaction happen,,,, such as it is.

    shane you got my p.m. i hope.
    Lamar; I haven't used any old STICK ON ww in this alloy, coww smelted and fluxed years ago, roof lead smelted and fluxed years ago. Now for the heat needed, educate me, I added the pennies and they dissolved within 10 seconds? instantaniously. I then stirred this melt, NO OATMEAL, it turned golden brown within seconds and turned bright blue a few seconds later. I stirred this melt and it was a smooth fully liqidous melt except for a couple clumps in it, they looked like shells of copper from the pennies. I never got the oatmeal effect until I added the copper sulphate. Now I do agree that maybe my pot isn't getting hot enough(but the zinc pennies melted instantaniously?) Can you answer me that these cu alloys are blue in smelting?
    Hell, I was there!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    flux it with copper sulphate?
    I think you would be much better off to flux with something like beeswax or soldering flux. I believe the blueish color is copper that is just sitting there. Flux will help combine the lead and copper and seperate the zinc sulfate.
    I tried adding copper sulfate to my alloy while useing a wood pellet stove as a heat source. I got a sludge like melt at one point and had to put the pot back in the stove to reheat till it again became liquid. Then I added the flux and I had no further sludging. I think you have a similar problem while useing your heat source.

    Nighthunter

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    R5R - if you use sulfur, the Pb will not take much Cu - both do the same thing and S has precedence over CU. When I used the CS on WW, I got a small chunks of hard stuff which I mixed and smashed until it dissipated. I believe it is SbCu2 and that is OK. I don't know what the melt temp of that is, but it did go away. I wasn't using the PID when I did the WWs, I'm sure the temp was > 750F. I haven't done the penny thing yet, busy as a 1 armed paper hanger, wife took me to the ER last nite thinking maybe I had a blood clot in my leg. Checked out OK. Guess I just pulled something somehow. The Cu goes into free Cu (blue), SbCu2 and Cu into the lead crystal lattice, which gives the toughening.
    Looks like I just need more heat, any idea the percentages of Cu to Zinc in a penny? I guess it really doesn't matter as the CS will replace whatever zinc is in the melt with copper, the plating off the pennies is free copper.
    Hell, I was there!

  9. #89
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    it's an issue of too much and not enough at the same time.
    then the numbers need to be more carefully controlled.
    trying for a saturation but without control of the amounts used guarantees inconsistencies from batch to batch.
    this is gonna affect your shooting time frame down the road too,it's unpredictable as it is now.
    the process "working" and being "predictable and controllable" are not the same.
    what happens in the alloy is fine.
    i'd rather use a known amount of zink and heat to get the process started,then use the saturation/replcement to predict the exchange.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  10. #90
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    That's the problem I couldn't find any zinc ww, used to have a half coffee can full, threw them out as thought they were bad I did weigh the pennies but part of that weight is copper, guess I could deplate one and weigh it.
    Hell, I was there!

  11. #91
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    Will one of you guys PLEASE go over to AR and say something to SmokinJ about this subject?? He's been carrying on a conversation with himself for a while now and people are starting to talk. I'd do it myself but sadly I'm banished.

  12. #92
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    i mentioned most all this to joe once.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat I. View Post
    Will one of you guys PLEASE go over to AR and say something to SmokinJ about this subject?? He's been carrying on a conversation with himself for a while now and people are starting to talk. I'd do it myself but sadly I'm banished.
    Pat,

    IMHO, I doubt that anything about this would be of great interest to JA. I've seen how he and a couple others have reacted to an idea they didn't have or hadn't used in the past their selves. He and they are who they are. I think that has already proved to be true within the last few weeks.

    Edd
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  14. #94
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    Pat,

    Can you point me to the proper place on the AR forum so I can see his comments? It might encourage me to join for a bit.

    Edd
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

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  15. #95
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    It's on the second page of this thread towards the bottom.

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...6131001181/p/1

    You have to get past the shooting bullets in outer space part (as far out as a couple of these guys are they might actually be shooting bullets in outer space), the usual bold print replys berating a guy for trying something and never being able to get it right because of the wrong methodology part, and the ever present 2 inch groups at 350 yds with a cast bullet going faster than the speed of light part. After that the copper into lead conversation is there.

  16. #96
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    Thanks Pat.

    Edd

    I went, I found, I read. Entertaining in a twisted sort of a way. I see I am included in the conversation...isn't that precious.
    Last edited by badgeredd; 01-20-2013 at 09:41 PM. Reason: New comment
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

    Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.

  17. #97
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    I go over there every now and then when I need a good laugh.
    Hell, I was there!

  18. #98
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    No need for concern,guys. I see in one of todays posts @ the Arab's site where SmokinJ(aka Starmetal, MaxPayne,joe,old joe, et al ,ad naus.)has taken to giving advice to his distracters ( apparently something betwixt a vampire and a zombie)Sorta like unto the house comedian in an oldtime burly house...
    "The Eagle is no flycatcher"

  19. #99
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    I did use lead pipe but the pot was clean before I started adding copper sulphate. The acrid fumes came from the copper sulphate. Drain pipe fumes are just horrible smelling - done that a lot. Did I decompose the copper sulphate without getting the copper absorbed into the tin rich melt? The last lot I added turned blackish with being stirred in.

    Now I know copper works - done it already, so there's no question in my mind. Just not very efficiently or scientifically. I'm going to try dissolving copper directly into babbit or lino and see what happens. I had a few sticks of plumbers solder lying around for many years so I decided to use them for the tin. Now I want to tin some copper and guess what? Those sticks are plenty expensive! Like $18 for a stick half the thickness! Murphy's second law. If you store things for many years, you will need them two weeks after throwing them out! Or in this case using them for a lesser purpose. So, plan B is to attempt to tin copper with babbit. I'll let y'all know how it works.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I did use lead pipe but the pot was clean before I started adding copper sulphate. The acrid fumes came from the copper sulphate. Drain pipe fumes are just horrible smelling - done that a lot. Did I decompose the copper sulphate without getting the copper absorbed into the tin rich melt? The last lot I added turned blackish with being stirred in.

    Now I know copper works - done it already, so there's no question in my mind. Just not very efficiently or scientifically. I'm going to try dissolving copper directly into babbit or lino and see what happens. I had a few sticks of plumbers solder lying around for many years so I decided to use them for the tin. Now I want to tin some copper and guess what? Those sticks are plenty expensive! Like $18 for a stick half the thickness! Murphy's second law. If you store things for many years, you will need them two weeks after throwing them out! Or in this case using them for a lesser purpose. So, plan B is to attempt to tin copper with babbit. I'll let y'all know how it works.
    If you go with adding copper to the babbit (tin babbit) it appears from my research that there is an upper limit somewhere around 7-8% copper concentration in a tin babbit. I don't know it to be a fact, but I suspect one can reach the saturation point somewhere in the 7 1/2% copper vicinity. Check out Rotometals Super Tough tin based babbit. So far I haven't found a higher concentration so I am thinking that 7-8% concentration is about as high as one can go and still keep the copper in solution. Also I don't know but since we will probably have trouble getting the babbit really hot, I suspect tin ozidation will also be a bit of a problem in getting our final mix concentratin very high. Just a few thoughts on adding copper....

    Edd
    Last edited by badgeredd; 01-21-2013 at 01:55 PM.
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

    Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.

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