Add copper to your alloy for tougher CBs.

[leadman]

Use Root Killer, no sulphur involved. I noticed if some of the RK dust fell off the side of the pot into the flame it burned blue/green.

I tested the hardness a couple of minutes ago on a boolit I water quenched this morning and it is at 18 BHN already. An air cooled boolit cast this morning is at 8 BHN.
I am going to check both a/c and w/q one a week for 6 weeks just to see how they age. The alloy before treatment with the RK was 8bhn when air cooled so the treatment did not change that so far.
The treated alloy did cast well at 650 degrees.

[swheeler]

Leadman it would be interesting if you would mark a bullet and take diameter measurements, see how much they grow.

[303Guy]

I don't recommend adding copper sulphate in a Lee bottom pour pot. It does things to the steel and leaves a hard to remove build up. Mine was new and suddenly began to leak and block up. I didn't have my stainless smelting pot handy at the time.

[Smokepole50]

Well I just finished reading the entire thread and it has been very interesting. I am new to casting anything other then T/C maxi-balls years ago before the sabot so I am still a novice at casting. I do have a few questions and comments so please forgive any lack of understanding concerning casting if I ask a stupid question.

First off I can see the need to remove Zinc contamination from COWW ingots. As I understand it Zinc is a bad thing when casting boolits, not experienced enough to know why but I will believe everyone here that says it is a problem.

So, if Zinc is bad then why add it to your uncontaminated melt at all if you can make the (Cu) Copper transfer process work with just a small loss of (Sn) Tin in the melt, especially if you are going to cast it into ingots and then remelt it 50/50 with more COWW later to beef up the (Sn) Tin and (Sb) Antimony levels?

From looking at the data provided by Manbeast, assuming that the starting material of the 50/50 Pb mix in both example 1 and example 2 were the same 50/50 Pb mix, I think you can make the argument that it might not be worth the addition of the Zinc just to transfer the the Copper especially if you are leaving some Zinc behind. If I understood one of the earlier post correctly, both Zinc and Tin will transfer the Copper to the melt at the same rate. If this is correct then the loss of Tin down from .981 in sample 2 (no pennies) to .781 in sample 1 that had the Zinc pennies added to it is only a loss of .200 Tin in the mix. The Copper % went from .411% in sample 2 to a .931% in sample 1, a increase of .521%. If you can make the assumption that the transference of Copper to the melt is a 1:1 transfer rate with both Zinc and Tin then there would have also been a transferance of .200% of Copper by the Zinc but this only gives us a .400% increase in the Copper level and we see a .521% increase so either the Zinc or the Tin is doing a better than 1:1 job at transfering the Copper into the alloy.

I know from reading here that Tin is fairly expensive but getting a consistant alloy result is just as important. I would suggest that another FOUR sample test be done using the exact same starting material such as the 50/50 Pb used in the previous test.

In one test just cast a boolit and see what is in it again.

In test two add in a weighted volume of Copper Sulfate to see what the transference rate is and the Tin loss is.

In test three add in (3) 1982 or later pennies (all from the same year) and see how much the zinc level rises in the alloy.

In test four add in (3) 1982 or later pennies of the (same year) and then the same weighted volume of Copper Sulfate to see how much Tin vs Zinc is removed. This data should give us some good numbers as to how much Copper Sulfate needs to be added to remove (X) Zinc and (Y) Tin. It should also be very helpful in determinig if it is even worth adding Zinc to the alloy just to transfer Copper into the alloy when the existing Tin might work better and can be adjusted back up later with subsquent alloying.

All this of course is for the purpose of adding Copper (Cu) to a already properly alloyed melt. The process of removing Zinc from a bad batched of COWW by the addition of Cupper Sulfate seems to be a good process althought it would seem that it may be limited in how much Zinc can be removed before you are limited by the uptake limit of Copper in the alloy and highier and highier melting tempatures.

[Smokepole50]

I thought I understood that the Lead alloy would only hold a certain amount of Copper. If that is true, how will all the Tin or Zinc be removed from a given Lead alloy by continuing to add Copper Sulfate?

In my experiment I was not suggesting a comparison of the Copper Sulfate weight to the weight of removed Zinc or Tin. I was only suggesting using the same weighed amount of Copper Sulfate in each experiment ( rather that Teaspoon, level, rounded, heaping???) so that the two experiments would be the same. If the same exact weight of Copper Sulfate is used ( they both should be holding approx. the same amount of water) in each experiment then you should be able to say X amount of Copper Sulfate added will remove Y amount of Zinc in one experiment and (X) amount of Copper Sulfate removed (Y) amount of Tin in the second experiment that did not have the pennies added. With that knowledge you can then see if the transference rate of Zinc and Tin are actually the same once you have the XRF measurements. The only hitch here it that the starting alloy will have some Tin already in it (but you will know how much from the XFR) when the pennies are added and this Tin will react as well along with the Zinc somewhat fudging the numbers on the Zinc transference rate alone but the interaction of the two metals ( Zinc and Tin) in the melt while the transference of Copper is taking place would still provide some useful information and a ratio could be made of how much Tin was removed while in the presence of the Zinc vs when the Zinc was not in the mix.

I know this sounds like a lot of effort and it would seem that there is some doubt as to the accuracy of the XRF measurement system but I would suggest that it is the best tool you have to get the information you need to make correct decisions in an effort to establish a process of making a alloy that is repeatable. The XRF may need calibrating but it is most likely very accurate and a good (FREE)standard from which to draw conclusions IMO.

Smokepole50

[badgeredd]

IMHO, Smokepole50, that is exactly the right approach. It would seem to me that if the XRF was calibrated against a known standard, one would get answers that were as close to scientifically accurate as we as hobbyists can get. PLUS it would answer a question I have had from the beginning about this approach to adding copper. It would seem to me that if the copper replaces Zn, one would not need to waste the Sn to get an alloy. Charts and graphs are great guides but to me the proof is in the details of the finished product...if we want repeatable results.

Edd

[xacex]

Ahh, found this again. This thread needs a sticky. This is a better process than sulfur removal of zinc. I try not to contaminate my lead, but it is now fall and I still have not tried it. Just finished elk season, so I get to spend some time in the casting shack finally.

[farmerjim]

I have been following this thread for quite a while. I got some Babbitt a while back with 4% Cu. I used some of this to add about 1% tin to the 100 pounds of alloy that I was mixing up to be about 12 BHN. This mix was about .004 % Cu.
It tested 17 BHN. I want to put Copper in all of my less than soft alloys from now on. I have some zinc contaminated lead and some copper sulphate. I have mixes these together in the smelting pot but don't know what to look for to know that all the zinc has reacted with the sulfur and the Cu is in the mix. This Copper addition looks to be a better alloy than adding Sb to make the alloy hard but brittle. I have not cast any Boolits with this yet, but should do so in the next few days. I will load them for my new 22 hornet Handi rifle. I dont know when I will get to test them because my neighbor bitches to the max anytime I shoot during Deer season even though they will walk into the back field, where I shoot, within 5 minutes after I stop shooting. These deer are totally acclimated to cars, tractors, leaf blowers and gunshots, but some people will not look at the facts.

[farmerjim]

I got the Boolits cast yesterday afternoon. Now to Hi-Tek coat and size them. As soon as it warms up this afternoon, I will finish changing the Zn contaminated Pb to Cu contaminated Pb. Thanks for the help.

[meeesterpaul]

Some foundry type already has copper in it. When I go get some samples XRF scanned I'll probably keep some of this aside rather than smelt it into the ingots that I'm selling.

[JackQuest]

Guess this is a bump of sorts.

Having read over and over again the various threads on adding copper it seems that the correct series of steps would be to add zinc to pure Pb, then exchange the Zn for Copper (Cu) - this to prevent removal of any Tin that might be in any other alloy. As noted in many posts to these threads about 0.1% to 0.2% copper appears to be the "sweet spot" regardless of the Tin (Sn) and Antimony (Sb) desired in the end mix.

To that end I intend an experiment with 15 pounds Pure and about 112 grains of Zinc. Next exchange for Cu through copper sulphate. Finally, add 1 pound of foundry type (alloy something like 15% Tin - 23% Antimony - 62% lead). Final alloy should be something like 94% Pb - 1.4% Sn - 4.5% Sb - 0.1% Cu. Mathematical errors expected as I made no allowances for density differences between any of the alloying agents.

I water drop all my boolets, built a casting "station" years ago that makes the process simple and fast. Will let rest at room temperature for a week or so after casting to allow age hardening prior to size & lube in the Star. Thinking both 68BB for .45 ACP and RCBS 45-405-GC for 45-70 Ruger "#2". In the ACP velocity is not a factor. In the 45-70 velocity IS a factor and the added toughness of the Cu alloying should be most useful. Lot of dangerous game here about in eastern Iowa!

[madsenshooter]

Be prepared for that moose they been seeing out there! I know why he's wandering around, he's got no hills for reference.

[Garyshome]

I have to give this a try!

[finstr]

OK I've tried to follow along, so now I need to ask a dumb question...
For every 100lbs of COWW's how many ounces/lbs of zinc do I add and how many Tbsp's of copper sulphate?

[sdcitizen]

If anyone really wants to know exactly what an alloy produces, I may be able to test it at work. We had tried one of those handheld xrf machines and got rid of it for accuracy reasons, the desktop model we have now has eliminated the need for fire analysis, and apparently agrees with Johnson-Matthey on alloys we send them.

[JackQuest]

be prepared for that moose they been seeing out there! I know why he's wandering around, he's got no hills for reference.

lol!!!

[Good Cheer]

In reading through the thread I noted the description of the color changes going through bright straw through bright blue. I've noted the same astonishing brilliant blue that remains even when the pot is skimmed and the blue poured off to the side. Bright, bright blue. Without ever doing the copper treatment. Don't know what all is in the melted down chemical plant piping but it sure does that rainbow changes.

[45Reverse]

Greetings fellas (or fellas and ladies if there are any of the fairer sex here)

...Been reloading for several years but just recently jumped into casting my own. Up till now it’s been all FMJ/TMJ stuff for me. I prefer ‘jacketed’ bullets (plated or gilded, I don’t care) so I use a lot of Speer and Zero bullets in 9mm. But with it becoming harder and harder to find good CHEAP jacketed/plated bullets I decided to dive into casting and coating my own loads. It’s my interest in coating my cast rounds that lead me to this thread, but more on that later...

Last night I put together my first batch of the Cu mixed alloy using copper sulfate. I was shooting for between 1.5% and 2% Cu. Here’s what I did and what I think I ended up with:

I melted 7.5 lbs of pure Pb. To that I added about 14 ounces of Lino and 1.2 ounces of Sn. I decided to use Tin as my copper replacement vehicle instead of Zn because the melt was easier and the quantity was more accurately “known” than tossing in pennies or Zn WW.

Using the method described in this thread I added the copper sulfate until the melt would take no more...Now here’s a question I have about the process: Once I had exchanged all of the tin for Cu (copper sulfate would not turn grey any more when added to the mix) I fluxed the melt and added 1 more ounce of Sn to the mix to replace some of what I had alloyed out for Cu.

My question is: I’m pretty sure there was no more copper sulfate left in the mix at that point, so did I actually add tin back into my mix, or does it tend to replace itself with copper no matter what once Cu has been introduced to the melt?

If I am making correct assumptions above, and my math is correct, I should have the following alloy:
97.1% Lead
1.6% Copper
1.2% Antimony
.1% Tin

Do you guys concur that that is what I’ve created here? Would my addition of Sn after the copper addition was completed change my numbers?

The resulting ingots were much harder than one would normally associate with 97% lead and 1.2% antimony. The surface had a unique crystalline look to it with a large broad crystal lattice that was quite noticeable and distinct. I don’t have Bnh tester to confirm and I haven’t cast any rounds from it yet, but it sure does “look” and “feel” like a dam tough alloy.

Thanks fellas! Enjoying the forum so far, TONS of great info here

~45Reverse

[RedHawk357Mag]

Ok last post on this was 24 April...nobody else experimenting with this? In other words bump??

[tommag]

I am trying this method now. I added 3oz zn to 19# ww ingots. So far, I have added copper sulfate, 2 heaping teaspoons at a time, for 7 times. I'm starting to get a bit of brown powder with the grey. Also, when I break the crud from the sides. I sometimes get a fairly lightweight metallic clump with the dross. Is this excess zn? It goes back in if I grind it against the sides.
I'm still getting grey dross, no white yet. This is a bit more time consuming than I thought.