Best lubes

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres the lube i use for the most part. Like 44mag said lube can be a big variable in accuracy in a gun and is just as important as powder or primers but its a variable thats a pain to adjust for. I size thousands of bullets and my star has been modified to hold about 3 sticks of lube so changeing isnt an easy thing. I first make felix lube. Its a great lube as is but i store alot of bullets and in the heat its alot like javalina and doesnt hold up well to long term strorage in the the heat. So after i make a big batch i fill a coffee can about 2/3s full Then i add about a half a cup of corduba car wax and about a 1/3 of a bottle of lee tumble lube. I dont know if it helps or not but ive got a bunch of it from sizer dies i bought and never liked it on its own so dump it in my regular lube. Then what i do is add hard commercial lube like magma blue or red rooster to fill the 3 lb can. That way it gets it a little thinner and my thoughts are why add paraphin to do it as it doesnt lube if i want to add something to firm it up it might as well be a lube. IVe shot many thousands of rounds with this lube and it flat works and ive had many people ive given it to swear its the best lube theyve tried. That being said if i had to buy lube and had money id buy lbt blue soft as its a dammed good lube and lars lubes are excellent lubes too at a much cheaper price. Is lbt worth twice the price. probably not. But it is a good lube.

[DJWright]

I've had great luck with LBT and Apache Blue. I like a very soft lube that will completely fly off the bullet the moment it departs the muzzel so as not to break off intermitedly and act on the bullet like an out of balance car tire.

[Milltown353]

What is the best recipe/load for 9mm to reduce leading in 9mm autos? I'm trying to find a good load/lube combination to minimize leading in a cobra mac. I have been using unique as my primary powder.

[wiljen]

Felix + Carnauba wax seems to work for everything cept BP for me.

[Marlin Junky]

Would a harder lube work better in a fast twist barrel than a softer lube or does it matter?? By harder lube I mean one with a higher percentage of Carnauba.

Has anyone tried adding Carnauba to Javelina or another similar 50/50 lube?

MJ

[leftiye]

M.J. Felix says that you don't want too much carnauba. Some of the old recipes were as much as 40% japan wax (which is Carnauba, I've read on the lube recipe thread) though. I would think that fast twist would demand a better lube, maybe not harder. The big RPM threads lately have convinced me that the surface lead ( base, sides, and nose) on boolits deforms at much lower pressures than the BHN X1422 formula predicts. I think this reflects the heat effects on the very surface layer of atoms. This would explain why paper patched boolits are more accurate, and can go faster. So I'm saying better lubes (not necessarily more lube either) are needed to protect the surfaces. Bass Ackward's idea about lube that evaporates and cools the boolit might be a big idea in this search.

[Marlin Junky]

The BHNx1422 formula doesn't consider rate of twist. The steeper the rifling pitch, the more stress on the skin of the bullet but I don't see how a lube can remedy this unless there is a compromise somewhere in viscosity and lubricity that would make a significant difference in our groups (with fast twist barrels).

MJ

[leftiye]

Maybe I'm being naive, but I was kinda thinking that better lube would help engraving, lower friction (and therefore lower heat= better surface hardness), and maybe overcome somewhat the extra pressure required to engrave and turn the boolit. A large part of the fast twist accuracy/velocity problem is probly due to the extra deformation incurred at engraving. Surface lube on the ogive might help too (seems to help sometimes, and not help other times).

[Marlin Junky]

I don't know leftiye but I see it as a torque problem in fast twist barrels. I'm currently trying to get good accuracy at over 1900 fps from a 12" twist .350RM and I don't know whether to harden my lube with more carnauba or leave it alone. Maybe it will be easier to decide after I fire lap with a Tubb's Final Finish kit. The way I see it is that the bullet wants to go straight and the rifling wants to turn it so I don't understand how any lube is going to help matters much when it comes to overcoming too much torque.

MJ

[leftiye]

If you are right and it's sheer torque causing the boolit to deform, the only chance you have is a stronger alloy. The reason for this is that what you are describing is the metal failing. Maybe using straight linotype, or adding copper or silver could cure this (cost mght be exorbitant). If the boolits aren't yet at the fail stress, then you're dealing with the more usual type of deformation.

For my money, the rock hard boolits needed to shoot the really high velocities are counter productive if you plan to hunt with those same boolits. On the other hand, it is possible I believe to get enough velocity that some hydrostatic shock will happen with flat nosed boolits. The fly in the ointment is that the flat nose slows the boolit down real fast, defeating your purpose. Good luck.

[BABore]

I don't know leftiye but I see it as a torque problem in fast twist barrels. I'm currently trying to get good accuracy at over 1900 fps from a 12" twist .350RM and I don't know whether to harden my lube with more carnauba or leave it alone. Maybe it will be easier to decide after I fire lap with a Tubb's Final Finish kit. The way I see it is that the bullet wants to go straight and the rifling wants to turn it so I don't understand how any lube is going to help matters much when it comes to overcoming too much torque.

MJ

I really don't think it's your alloy. At least not it's current hardness. It could certainly be your lube. I ran into similar situations with both my 338 Win Mag (1 in 10), and my 375 H&H (1 in 12). I was using HTWW's at 28 Bhn and a decent (slick) lube. Any time I got above 1,800-1,900 fps, groups started to open up. That's open up from 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups for 3 shots at 100 yards. When I got above 2,100 fps, groups opened to the 1 1/2 inch range. I also started to get some grey wash in the barrel. I switched to LBT Blue lube and the wash disappeared and accuracy improved slightly. Once I got up to 2,300 fps the wash returned. I was stumped and figured that was it.

As I was a new forum member here, and didn't really know many people, I PM'd the most cantankerous, ornery, stubborn fellow here that had lots of posts. He wouldn't tell me what to do, but asked lots of questions and gave me some suggestions of things to try. The first thing was alloy. He suggested that I cut my WW's with 50% pure lead and WD or OHT them. Said they get about 18-20 Bhn. How in the world would an alloy that's 8-10 Bhn softer than mine work any better? Well, I tried it and it worked. The grey wash disappeared at HV. Groups also tightened up. Through testing I've found that this alloy was more malleable, but also tougher than straight WW's. I can get it up to around 2,400 fps before things come apart on me. Both rifles now kick butt with 50/50 WWPb heat treated, LBT lube, CCI 250's, and XMP 5744. Below 2,000 fps they are both scary accurate.

In regards to firelapping your bbl, I've had nothing but success with it. BUT, not with the Tubb's kit. Both LBT and Beartooth talk about the advantages of firelapping with only 10-12 Bhn lead bullets. Beartooth gives the best argument as to why you don't want to use jacketed bullets for lapping. #1 is velocity. It takes alot more of it to push a jacketed bullet through the bore. You want to do it slow (airgun speed) like. #2 is hardness and springback. You want to lap out the rough spots on both lands and grooves, and achieve a tapered bore when done. Jacketed lapping bullets ride the bore and may not touch the groove diameter as much. This is due to their high hardness. So, they will reduce and smooth land height while doing little to the groove. When a constriction is encountered, it is worn down first. A jacketed bullet will wear on the constriction, then spring back to work on the remainder of the bbl too. A cast bullet will wear on the constriction and be sized down because of it (just like small revolver throats). It travels the rest of the bbl running small doing little cutting. With a lead lapping bullet you will get progressive cutting action and achieve a tapered bore.

I have used a Tubb's kit on a problem gun. It did smooth things up, but never improved accuracy. I can't blame the lack of improvement on the lapping as this bbl just plain sucked. I did learn alot from doing it though. With only 30 rounds it lengthened the throat by 0.037". I have heard that the jacketed bullet kits are not bad for a little throat polishing and cleanup, but I'll stick with slow cast ones. Guys that hand lap customs bbls don't use hard jacketed bullets for a lap. Just my two cents.

[felix]

Very good, BAB. ... felix

[Boomer Mikey]

BABore's comments are spot on... The Tubb kits are OK for throat work, that's what they were designed for but BHN 10-12 oversize boolits are superior.

When firelapping; less is more, you can always continue on. In many instances, 10 - 20 lapping shots will improve the situation dramatically.

Boomer

[Marlin Junky]

BABore,

Thanks for the encouraging report on 50/50 alloy which I have been meaning to try. Sound like too much Sb is the cluprit... I'd like to understand the reason though.

The firing lapping is done and it seems to have noticeably smoothed things out near the muzzle because the even film of copper left behind by 10 rounds of 140 grain Remington pistol bullets at 2400 fps (shot just after the lapping) came out easily with a few wipes of a patch soaked with Gunslick Copper Klenz. When I began the fire lapping session with the Final Finish bullets, (225 grain Sierra BT) the first five rounds were much harder to clean up after (remove the fouling). Most of the day I was scrubbing out copper like a Banshee and I've lost most of the feeling in my fingertips.

I was concerned about wear on the lands and not in the grooves but I tried this system first on a H-R in .35 Whelen before using it on a more expensive barrel. The Ruger M77 .350 "miked" .3570" to .3575" in the grooves before today's lapping and most of the FF bullets miked .3580" (a few were .3575"). I think I kept the slug I used to mike the barrel when it was new and tomorrow night, it there's time, I'll repeat the barrel miking with a virtually identical slug.

BTW, I bought one of Bearthooth's lapping kit years ago and never used it for fire lapping because the lapping compound is 320 grit

MJ

[BABore]

You can buy Clover brand lapping compound in finer grits at most any machine shop supply. All the way to 1200 grit. One of the reasons that Beartooth uses only Clover is because it is silicon carbide in a grease suspension. Silicon carbide breaks down into finer particals very easy. In otherwords, it may start at 320 grit, but in effect it's like using a finer compound.

In regards to the 50/50 alloy, yes it has to do with the antimony level. Most of the grey wash you get in a bbl is antimony. From what I understand, the antimony propagates more toward the bullets exterior. The higher the antimony, the more there is in contact with the bbl which also accelerates wear. It contributes to the bullets hardness, hardening ability, cast size, and future growth. Lowering the antimony level will reduce the maximum hardness potential. When hardness is reduced the alloy becomes less brittle and toughness is increased. Toughness and elasticity are related. IMO the alloy is more "springy" in the bbl and better able to overcome abnomalities. Where a harder (higher antimony) alloy may comform and stay that way or shear, the tougher alloy springs back slightly. This is just my opinion though and is based on working with other metals having similar characteristics.

One of the greatest benefits, that I see, is that a 50/50 mix makes a darn good hunting bullet. It's hard enough to shoot HV, yet soft and malleable enough for good expansion when heat treated. It mushrooms nicely and resists fragmenting into little tiny pieces. Ones I've tested show large fragments when they let go. You also have the option of annealing the nose for a soft point or a controlled temperature WD. I posted, awhile back, on how and why you can water drop a larger diameter bullet and get a hard shell on a softer interior. A 50/50 WW-Pb mix is not the end-all answer to everything. You can play with the proportions and come out where you want. I know that 357Max has tried a 30/70 ratio and it will harden to 16-17 Bhn. Similar to the hardness of #2 alloy, but totally different shooting and expansion characteristics.

[Lloyd Smale]

BaBore i really enjoy your posts. You surely do amaze me with your knowlege. Only argument i can make to the is high alloy antimony lead bullets wearing on your barrel. I shot alot and alot of my guns for years shot nothing but 5050 ww/lyno bullets. Most now i use #2 as my lineotype is getting about impossible to find. Ive done tons of penetration testing with just about every alloy and into about every possible media that ive heard of to test in. Ive never seen wear in a barrel from antimony and the only guns that ever got a grey wash were ones with rough barrels and that was fast fixed. Ive just about allways got better accuracy with 5050 bullets then any alloy. Weve tested 4 1911s and two 25 smiths. and inother test using 3 29s and one ruger 44 and tested both times using 4 alloys from 5050 ww/pure up to 5050 ww/lyno and with at least 2 different bulelts and 2 different powders. With only one exception the 5050 ww/lyn bullets outshot them all. One 1911 had its favorite load with ww with 2%tin.

Now i know that isnt a sceintific test but my buddy Al keeps records better then anyone ive see and test probably more variables in a gun then anyone i know. He looked over some of his records after that test and found that it look like in most of his guns that accuracy improved with hardness. Now you also have keep in mind that about none of my guns are stock guns. there all at least gone over to make sure everything is right and a good portion are line bored match barreled guns. Ill stand behind my thought that a well made gun with proper allgnment and and a good barrel will consistant shoot better with harder alloys.

The 5050 bullets at least in a big bore will usually do the best job in a penetration test too. Ive never seen a straight lineotype bullet at hand gun speeds fracture. I think though with the 5050s you have all the strenght you need to bust bone and have a tad more weight that aids in penetration. By the way i have seen water dropped bullets espcially swcs fracture. We had a rash of it at linebaugh seminar penetration test a few years ago.

Again im talking handguns here and not rifles. Its probably pure luck that i luck into good loads for my rifles as im sure no expert on them. Im also not a fan of water dropping any bullets. Like i said ive seen the fail personaly and have allways had better luck with alloyed bullets for accuracy. Someday soon though im going to have to change my casting and start water dropping. the way lineotype is drying up a guy will have no choise.

[felix]

Antimony looses it roughness as it is surrounded by tin. The more tin, the more the cover, and less the wear. Some barrels can be improved by the gray wash, depending on how bad they shoot. In time, the barrel will be broken in for more normal (cheaper) lead combos. ... felix

[carpetman]

felix---You lived in Houston next door to an engineer that was expert in lubes and gained a lot of knowledge. Just think,had you been transferred to Louisville instead of Houston, you may have lived next door to an expert in lubes and learned a different field. You may have became an expert on KY Jelly instead of bullet lubes and look what kind of questions you'd be answering now instead of about bullet lubes.

[Marlin Junky]

What HT temp range does 50/50 (clip-on [CO] WW/Pb) respond to?

For example: I have some high tin content alloy (COWW metal and solder [bar and wire]) that air cools to BHN 17.5-18 and it doesn't harden when convection baked for an hour at 450F. Convection baking at 475F will bump its hardness into the 20-21 range after three or so days.

MJ

[felix]

Well, I should have, Ray! I am in need of that formulation these days. Back then that stuff was for coating holes in the ground so they could pull up little folks who fell in by some strange happening. That was all over the news 10 years ago? Around Waco? ... felix