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Thread: New take on "slow" rust bluing

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    New take on "slow" rust bluing

    Ok, so most people have heard about or used rust bluing before right?
    Basically, you swab the object with an acid mix bought from midwayusa or brownells, put the part in a sweat box, boil it to deactivate the acid, card off the rust, and repeat the process up to 8 times to get full coverage. 8 days to finish optimally.

    Most smiths don't do this any more because it's just too time consuming and most people are cheap and don't want to pay for the labor involved. Also, if you apply the finish unevenly, you will get streaking that takes even more applications to blend in.



    Here's something I've been experimenting with that I'd like to share with the community at large:

    If you haven't seen electrolytic rust removal before, just type it into youtube and watch a video. Pretty simple. A battery charger, a sacrificial anode, some baking soda and some water. All these aim to get rid of rust, leaving it all on the sacrificial anode.

    What we want to do is create rust! (black oxide)

    All you do is reverse the current. Put the positive lead on your part that needs bluing, put the negative lead on something that is rusty.

    After a couple hours, turn off the electricity and remove your part. It should have a nice surface layer of rust on it. Underneath that surface is black oxide.

    Using a carding wheel (recommended) or some 0000 steel wool, start lightly polishing the red rust off. Keep putting it back in the tank, rusting, and carding until the entire surface is covered in black oxide. Because we are using baking soda, just rinse it off in the sink. You don't have to boil the part to remove any acids, like with the bluing solutions out there.

    The electrolysis only works in a straight line between the anode and cathode, so you will need to rotate your part as it gets covered. As soon as you get adequate coverage, and you're happy with the finish, put the part in a solution of ATF/WD-40 to displace the water and halt any future rusting.

    WARNING: Try this on some tools in your garage before anything gun related. If a part is extremely thin, like a knife blade you will eventually rust the sharp edge off of it and it will need resharpening. Rusting still causes a part to lose some of it's mass, so I would highly recommend only using this on larger parts. In a nutshell, don't use it on small internal gun parts.



    2nd WARNING: See those little bubbles rising to the surface of your water? That's hydrogen! The byproduct of putting an electrical current thru water to convert/remove rust creates hydrogen. Don't smoke or do this around open flames or sparks. If you do this indoors, open a window or turn a fan on to disperse the gas that rises from your container, or if you're like me, open your garage door.

    Because this doesn't involve the use of acids, expensive solutions, or long wait times, I believe that you can get pretty proficient in this technique in a short time. It's so simple, I'm sure some gunsmiths have figured it out on their own, but don't want to give their competitors an edge. I KNOW I'm not the only person to figure this out.

    It took me about 8 hours to complete covering a large high carbon knife blade in black oxide (Instead of 8 days.) There was a little pitting on the back of the blade that I didn't like, so I ground off the pitting and it's back in the solution as I type this. (I think the pitting was because I never bothered to card that part off the knife off, so it accelerated the rusting.)



    The finish looks like what you see on drill bits. It's a non glare, dark grey finish (almost black) that doesn't reflect light and holds oil just like parkerizing. I believe that the higher the carbon content, the faster you'll see results. If there is high nickel or chromium content, your part might not rust like you want it to, and it might be a better cantidate for hot salt bluing or using a harsher solution than baking soda.

    I believe that information like this is too good to keep a secret, and there are countless guns that won't ever get refinished because it's too expensive to do for most folks, so my motivation is to help out everyone by sharing this. That's how society improves. The free exchange of information.

    Now go have fun experimenting and save your rusty tools!

    Andy.
    Last edited by andremajic; 12-26-2011 at 10:54 AM. Reason: fix pics
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  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Ok, update:

    If you're just mixing it up, put approx 1/3 cup baking soda per gallon of water. A squirt of dishwashing detergent will help cut through any crud that acts as a barrier to the electrolysis.

    UPDATE: DON'T USE SALT, stick to baking soda!

    I tried salt and there was uneven pitting that I had to take off with the belt sander.

    Will post pics of process and finished/oiled blade when done tonight.

    Andy.
    Last edited by andremajic; 12-26-2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason: update again
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    If you're wondering what that groove running the length of the blade is, it's the race that the bearings used to ride in. I wasn't able to fully flatten out this because the metal is so danged hard. 52100 bearing steel is a premium knife steel, loved by custom knife makers for it's qualities.

    I like the way the forging marks show on the handle and plan on keeping it rough and rustic looking, so I will be leaving it that way. (I made the knife for me anyways!)

    After pulling it out of the WD-40 and wiping it down well with newspaper, I applied some clove oil to the blade and handle, so that it's got more of a "food safe" oil.

    I jokingly refer to this as "The Zombie Killing Knife" whenever someone asks what it would be used for. The finger grooves are cut so that it fits my hand perfectly and the weight is perfectly balanced.



    Once the edge has been sharpened so it can shave hair, there will be a nice contrasting white metal edge to compliment the black oxide finish.



    The closest thing I've seen to this finish on a gun would be a remington 700 factory barrel from a synthetic model. The beauty of this system is, that since the electrolysis works on line-of-sight from cathode to anode, that the inside of a gun barrel will not be coated.

    If you are working on a gun barrel, I would get some of those silicone plugs from mcmaster carr to keep the water out.

    Andy.
    Last edited by andremajic; 12-26-2011 at 11:05 AM. Reason: fixed pics
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Interesting! I'll give it a try. Must you use a rusty offer anode, or could you just add some rust scrapings to the water?
    Cap'n Morgan

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    When I use electrolytic rust removal, the anode gets eaten away. This process turns the good part into the anode... Why doesn't the good part get eaten away?

  6. #6
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    How do I protect the bore?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Morgan View Post
    Interesting! I'll give it a try. Must you use a rusty offer anode, or could you just add some rust scrapings to the water?
    I had plenty of steel dust that I swept off the floor and added to the solution, just to give it some extra iron, but the first run I didn't add anything extra. Not sure if it helps or not.

    I had a rusty gun barrel that was the rust donor for this project. There were 2 projects done at once!

    Andy.
    Last edited by andremajic; 12-28-2011 at 08:18 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by imashooter2 View Post
    When I use electrolytic rust removal, the anode gets eaten away. This process turns the good part into the anode... Why doesn't the good part get eaten away?
    Well, I believe that "some" of the good part gets eaten away. The very sharp part of my knife blade was dull, so the edge was rounded. It resharpened in a couple minutes though.

    Remember, you're leaving it in to coat it with a "light" layer of rust, removing the red rust, leaving black oxide behind and repeating until the entire part is covered with black oxide.

    I'd say you lose a lot less metal this way than if you were doing parkerizing, boiling a part in acidic water for 15-20 minutes.

    Just start experimenting and post your results on this board. Start with non gun stuff first though!
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  9. #9
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    In real rust blueing the rusted part is boiled in distilled, or at least mineral free, water and the red rust becomes black. the loose black oxide is carded off and the process is repeated untill the desired depth of color is reached.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by calaloo View Post
    In real rust blueing the rusted part is boiled in distilled, or at least mineral free, water and the red rust becomes black. the loose black oxide is carded off and the process is repeated untill the desired depth of color is reached.
    So it would be better to boil the parts between the bouts of electroysis? I'm just experimenting right now, and haven't taken the time to boil my parts. I'll try it and post the results.

    I always figured that the main reason for boiling was to get rid of the acid.

    Andy.
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  11. #11
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    This is exactly what my electro etcher does. It has two settings, one etches a deep mark and the other produces a black mark. I believe the only difference between the two is the current direction. I am building a large electroetcher that will allow me to burn designs into the metal but I was also going to experiment with the same thing you are doing. Very interesting! Subscription has been added.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    I always figured that the main reason for boiling was to get rid of the acid.
    If you do a rust bluing (or browning actually) and skips the boiling, the surface will take on a nice brown color like seen on old damascus barreled guns.
    Cap'n Morgan

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    Hmm... Worth a try with my rusty(ish) reloading press handle.

  14. #14
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    Protecting the bore? Don't know if it will work, but someplace mentioned coating the bore with lacquer. After done, rinse bore with lacquer thinner to remove. Gonna give it a try when I get a round tuit. Couple home made push through sizers here, one of which needs lapping to final size. Blue first and if the bore gets etched, lapping should put the shine back.

    BeeMan
    Last edited by BeeMan; 04-04-2012 at 07:31 PM. Reason: push through sizers was M dies

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    What ever happened to this project? I was hoping for more pictures and tests.
    Did you run out of steam?
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  16. #16
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    Sorry if it's a crappy pic. I've been using the knife to chop firewood recently, so there are scratches on the polished part of the blade.

    Very sharp, and it doesn't lose the edge!

    Andy.
    Last edited by andremajic; 04-07-2012 at 10:36 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  17. #17
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    be carefull

    ive read this post and must add a warning.
    when you clean hard metal with this electrolyse method , it can leave the metal
    briddle , in dutch this is called "koolstof brosheid ".

    carbon embrittlement is what google gives me as a translate.
    be very carefull with this methode , especially barrels !

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwin41 View Post
    ive read this post and must add a warning.
    when you clean hard metal with this electrolyse method , it can leave the metal
    briddle , in dutch this is called "koolstof brosheid ".

    carbon embrittlement is what google gives me as a translate.
    be very carefull with this methode , especially barrels !
    Very interesting. I had never heard that being a problem with electrolysis. I found this link;

    http://www.vacaero.com/Industrial-He...red-steel.html

    It has no mention of molecular alignment with electrolysis, it just covers the known brittleness due to various heat treatments.
    Do you have a link directly pertaining to the electric process weakening metals? I do find reference to hydrogen embrittlement, but only under high heat.
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  19. #19
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    Very interesting stuff! Your knife appears "black" in the photo like a caustic blue job. The thing I like about cold rust blueing is the rich "gun metal gray" color. Is the knife more gray then it appears in the picture?

  20. #20
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    Many years ago a friend made me a new screw in aperture for a tang sight. I wanted to blue it and read somewhere that heating it red hot and dropping into beeswax would work. IT DID! Still beautiful to this day.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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