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Thread: 358 Winchester Cast Make Sense?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    I like the 245 grain Saeco. I have several molds and 2 rifles in the caliber. I have the 200gr. RCBS. it is accurate and enough for deer. I have the Lyman 358009 ,it is a big bullet, at 286 grains as I cast it, and in one rifle,may be the most accurate by a small margin. It is a big,impressive looking bullet,and I am sure that is why i wanted it. I've had good accuracy out of the 245 Saeco, The Saeco molds are excellent, and that is plenty heavy enough for anything most folks are likely to hunt.
    Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    A 35 caliber hunting rifle is "Just Right" for most applications

    Finding the perfect bullet is like finding the perfect anything else.

    This 358318 group buy mould is generating some interest.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Check-NOE-SGB

    So is the run of 358009 here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Group-Buy-Alum

    And yet another, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-(RCBS)-Re-run

    This is what I load in a .356 Win., a 220 grain version of the RCBS bullet.
    ..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 360-200 x3.JPG  

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The thing about the 358 Winchester is that it is the perfect medium between 30 and 45 caliber rifles.
    The 30 calibers generally run too fast for cast lead, and they are quite small, so getting the weight up where it puts you in a better situation speed-wise makes the boolit to long to easily stabilize with typical 30 caliber twist rates.
    in contrast, the 45 caliber rifles are easy to cast and load for, and are very accurate. However, they tend to drink powder and lead like it's free, and they shoot in a rainbow arch (unless you enjoy the stiff recoil that comes with shooting a 500 grain boolit 2200 FPS).
    The 358Win has enough diameter to give good bearing surface, top speed is 2600 with 200 grain boolits (still a little fast but NBD). The 358 is reasonable on powder and lead consumption, and brass is very very available in the form of 308Winchester that can be reformed to 358 Winchester very easily.
    358 Winchester is also a short action cartridge which gives it the ability to be used by all the most user friendly platforms like the venerable Remington model Seven, or any other rifle chambered in a cartridge derived from the 308Winchester like .243, 7mm-08, 260 Remington, and 338 Federal.
    It has all the inherent accuracy of the 308, and packs a serious wollup suitable for taking any game in north America in my estimation.
    Observe what happens when you shoot a deer 75yrds away with a 200 grain boolit made from strait WW going 2000 fps:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-in-the-world
    You see, you don't need near as much speed to get a cast lead boolit to have the same effect on a game animal as a copper jacketed bullet (a concept I am still getting my head around, even though I have hunted with cast boolits for the past two years.) Cast lead boolits are just more effective than jacketed, and in 358 Winchester, they are a force to be reckoned with.
    Also, there is a large following of 358Win advocates on this site and we can get you up to snuff in a very short period of time.
    I have spent more time building and shooting 35 caliber rifles and pistols, than any other caliber and it has never let me down. My dad was a big fan of the 358s too, so I suppose I come by it naturally.
    Pm me if you need any help.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master UBER7MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    You see, you don't need near as much speed to get a cast lead boolit to have the same effect on a game animal as a copper jacketed bullet (a concept I am still getting my head around, even though I have hunted with cast boolits for the past two years.) Cast lead boolits are just more effective than jacketed, and in 358 Winchester, they are a force to be reckoned with.
    Cast boolits are devastating!
    Uber7mm

    Bambi: The great American hunting story as told through the eyes of the antagonist.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master youngda9's Avatar
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    I did some velocity and grouping testing last night…increasing charges to check for accuracy and leading in the barrel. I’ve read a lot of accounts of people losing accuracy right at 2000fps with a 200gr lead bullet in the 358 Winchester. I'm using H4895 powder. I was able to get 2209fps(10 shot average MV) with a 232gr bullet with good accuracy and no leading. I am shooting a Stainless Ruger 77 using an Accurate 35-230D mold. Cast, checked, and lubed it weighs 232gr. I cast with COWW, water drop, seat check and size to .3585 with my Lee push throu sizer, then dip the bands(even the front) into 45/45/10 and pass through the sizer one more time to fill out grooves and remove excess lube. I’m happy with 2209fps and will stop increasing the charge. The velocity curve is bending over meaning that pressure is probably bending up with added powder…I’m nowhere near the 52K limit, but increasing the pressure more and more on a cast bullet will only lead to bad things (gas cutting and leading).

    The delta velocity is dropping fast.
    Gr Vel Avg Δ
    39 1990
    40 2091 101
    41 2163 72
    42 2209 46

    At 42 grains, I shoot 2 groups.
    Group 1: 5 shots @1.4” 4 shots @0.76”
    Group 2: 3 shots @0.8”

    I then overlaid the two targets on top of each other and measured all 8 shots at once. 7 shots into 1.11", 8 shots into 1.4"

    I found my load. Going to load up much more of the same and shoot a bunch…with a little technique work I should have no problem keeping them all at 1” or better. I’m THRILLED that I can get 2209fps with a 232 grain bullet…that’s 2513.5 ft-lbs!

    If I use +/-3” to calculate a MPBR, it’s 3” high at 100yds, right on at 180yds, and 3” low at 210yds. At 210 it still is moving at 1628fps and has 1354ft-lbs energy. Assuming a .270 BC.
    Last edited by youngda9; 12-20-2012 at 02:58 PM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

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    That'l kill a bar for sure!

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I find it interesting that a comment was made about the 255 gr bullet that I designed having too long of a nose and should have more drive bands. Yet the RCBS 35-200 and the near identical NOE version of 210gr are great bullets and have a proven record.
    I have all three of those molds and I can not argue as to the value of the bullets from both RCBS and NOE mold. Both shoot great. What is interesting is that when you measure these bullets from the RCBS and NOE molds the length of the bearing surface compared to the nose length is roughly equal. 50% of the overall length is bearing surface and 50% is nose. So is my 255 gr design. Plus my 255 has a larger meplat and a more gradual ogive which keeps more weight centered over the length of the bullet. I can assure you, I have had no accuracy issues with my 255s, at least not in my rifle. Twist rate should be taken into account when making a decision on which bullet to use. Longer, heavier bullets may not work in your particular rifle. I'm sure you can't go wrong with the 200 gr offerings.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    ----------------
    Last edited by high standard 40; 12-20-2012 at 04:40 PM.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master youngda9's Avatar
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    There is nose, bore riding, and full caliber portions to the bullet. If you look at the 35-230D that I'm shooting The full caliber plus bore riding section is 0.64" long...with the overall length of the boolit at 0.95". That is over 67% of the bullet at full caliber or larger...it makes for an accurate boolit. Having a good bore riding section helps get the bullet moving straight through the throat and into the rifling. Matching the boolit to the lead shape and dimensions of your rifle is very important as well. Boolit setback testing for group size will tell you what your firearm likes....010"-.020" difference in boolit OAL sure does make a difference. I also only 2/3 neck size and leave the shoulder and the rest of the brass alone, this helps accuracy as well.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master helice's Avatar
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    You have mentioned the LBT moulds. I am in total agreement with you. Veral makes a very nice mould. I have a number of his 35 cal. moulds including a 150 OWC, 180 FNpb, 180 LFNgc 225 FNgc, and a 240 LWNbb. I use these in a 350 Remington Magnum and I have never had a boolit failure. The 240 WLN (with a beer can check) is a favorite but it may have length difficulties in your 358 if you intend to keep the boolit base in the neck. I recomend the Wide Long Nose profile for it's mepat and ease of chambering. The 225 FN hits the rifling quickly in my M-600.
    It is standard operating procedure for me to drool over the 358 Win. It is IMHO the perfect North American hunting cartridge when used with cast. I wish like crazy that I had one. You are most fortunate to start your cast experience with so fine a rifle and so perfect a ctg.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    youngda9
    All of your advice is sound. Starting the bullet straight is vital to accuracy. I also only partially neck size. My bullet does fit my chamber based on impact slugs and I've done extensive range tests with different seating depths and I get excellent accuracy. I was responding to the comment that the nose on my design is too long and it may not fly straight at long range. I was pointing out that it's front to rear weight balance is the same as the 200 grain designs...50% full diameter/50% nose. RCBS, Lyman, Saeco, and others make 7mm and 30 cal molds that have much more nose than full diameter bearing surfaces and they shoot well at distance, if you start them straight.

  12. #32
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    i made that comment based on the weight balance i percieved from the picture.
    50-50 by length is not always what it seems.
    a 60 nose by 40 body isn't always a good compromise either.
    the long silhouette bore riders do shoot well over long distance [i shoot bowling pins at 300 yds with both my 7 and 30 cal versions] but they are velocity handicapped.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    At 42 grains, I shoot 2 groups.
    Group 1: 5 shots @1.4” 4 shots @0.76”
    Group 2: 3 shots @0.8”

    I then overlaid the two targets on top of each other and measured all 8 shots at once. 7 shots into 1.11", 8 shots into 1.4"
    What more can one ask for? Well, maybe a 300gr boolit at that velocity or perhaps 2000fps would be great too but I'm not sure that heavy a boolit is actually needed. It just sounds nice.

    I'm very interested on those results because I have a hankering for a 357-303 which should have identical performance, having the same case capacity (up to the shoulder).

    Beerd, might I ask what the meplat diameter of your boolits are?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    I used a 2 part bullet in my .358. It had a soft lead nose and a Lyman #2 body for hunting. For practice and informal plinking I just used Wheel Weighs air cooled. Even the air cooled wheel weights were good enough for eastern White tails! I have a 358318 mold that I filed the nose flat on some of the cast bullets from it. I do NOT know the velocity, but they worked VERY well on crop raiding does. I don't know how well they'd work on 200 yard animals. I never shot any that far away, preferring to hunt closer before shooting. I did practice at ranges beyond 200 yards with groups under 4" at 200 yds. My target at 200 was clay pidgeons collected from the trap range and laid on the target berm. I was not that good OFFHAND though!

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    303guy The bullets in the photo I posted have a meplat just a fuzz over .2"

    ..

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    mworthan, I've killed a couple of whitetails with a358 using an Old West mould. A 260 gr projecticle with a nose profile very similar to the Lyman 358009. Both one shot kills and complete pass thru. Muzzle velocity of 2000 fps and the longest shot was just over 100 yards. No experience at 200 yards or on elk. I'e also used the RCBS 35-200-FN in 35 Remington at 1900 fps and at ranges of 150 yards and under it kills just as well as the heavier bullet from the 358. I never pushed the 358 and Old West combination faster since I couldn't handle the extra recoil. I've since had the BLR Mag-Na-Ported which really helps and did not hurt accuracy,but haven't hunted with the Browning since I've fallen in love with Marlin lever action. I have mostly straight wheelweight alloy for hunting. sometimes with acast soft nose and water quenched for a hard body. I've also used 30 calibers and the 32 Special on deer and antelope and one common charastic is complete penetration. 20 plus deer and 5 antelope and I have recovered only two bullets. So if deer are in bunches be careful about what is behind the one you are aiming at. Don't kill two deer with one shot if you only have one tag. One bullet I recovered was from a mule deer doe at about 80 yards. Deer was facing me and I hit her just to the right of the neck. Bullet was found laying on the tail when I rolled her over to field dress. Bullet had used the original exit hole .

  17. #37
    Boolit Mold
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    Well fellas, lots of good info here and I have enjoyed watching this thread. I have been convinced that the 358 Winchester will make a suitable round to pursue casting and will most likely add my 300BLK, 45 ACP and maybe even my dad's 30-06 to the mix. I would like to be able to cast for everything I shoot as long as it would have multipurpose capabilities in both target and hunting.
    My biggest fear was that I would invest a lot of money and effort in a pursuit that really struggled in performance to match an even mediocre jacket bullet in accuracy and game performance, all for the bragging rights to say that "I made that!". For what it costs to get set up with a good sizer (Star) and decent molds and melting equipment, not to mention lead become harder and harder to find in scrap, a person could buy quite a few bulk and even a decent number of premium bullets for say just hunting and the requisite shooting to become and stay proficient with any particular firearm... that is IF it was strictly a matter of dollars and cents.
    I have Veral's book, chamber slugs and push through slugs on the way. He was very responsive and encouraging (as all of you have been) in his emails and I plan to send those slugs back to him for a 2 cavity mold. I will leave it up to him to size what fits my BLR the best with a style that will perform well on deer to elk sized game and hopefully will meet success much quicker this way.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Why do you need to be able to get your lead for free or close to it? Why is that such a determining factor? I would make my projectiles out of lead, even if I had to pay $2.50 per pound to get the lead in the first place!
    Yeah, there is an initial startup cost to this, but the equipment lasts forever!!!
    Yeah it takes a little skill to be able to make a suitable projectile, but your argument is like saying that you would rather continue to take the buss, than buy a car and learn to drive it on your own. I mean the cost of oil changes alone makes that a crazy idea, right?
    Have you ever found a projectile that your gun really likes, and then you go to try to buy it and its out of stock, the ATF deemed it "unworthy", or the manufacturer discontinued it? Just wait, it will happen.
    The cast lead boolit is the best projectile on the planet. It does more damage and needs less speed in order to get the same result. and at less than 2000 FPS, you can cloverleaf your shots consistently at 100yrds.
    Trajectory is its Achilles heel. If you want to launch your boolits 300 yards and only drop 6" then I guess your'e SOL.
    There are those who do for themselves, and there are those who take what they are given.
    I'll make mine, thanks.
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 12-26-2012 at 12:44 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I might also add that you don't need to buy a Star sizer in order to get good results. An ordinary push-through sizer is satisfactory. I don't own one, and even though I started with a lubr-sizer, I pan or dip lube exclusively now. This can be as expensive, or cheap as you want it to be.
    I have got people reloading lead boolits with nothing more than a $25 Lee loader, a Lee mold and one of my gas check makers. I made them a custom powder dipper out of a spent 357Mag casing, and a 3" piece of brazing rod soldered on the side. When hunting this year, and I was pleased to see one of the fellers sitting on the floor making his reload for his mosin negant rifle. He had sighted in his rifle with the 15 rounds left over from last year, and was reloading the twenty pieces of brass that he got with the rifle. Those fellers melt their lead in a coal fire and pour their boolits, but they are doing it right because I taught them the important parts of making their own boolits. Heck these fellers had to pool their money in order to buy a pound of powder which they share amongst themselves!
    They have less than $100 invested in the whole setup, including powder and primers, but they pile up the deer every year.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  20. #40
    Boolit Mold
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    Bingo Goodsteel!
    I probably misstated this post. It was in my initial post that I had reservations concerning those topics you mentioned. I didn't really elaborate on my concerns and was just restating what was really on my mind before my initial post. I am no longer asking about whether it is a good idea anymore. I am sold on it and have already started down the road to casting with the sale of a lathe I rarely use and putting that money into equipment and a little leather for my saddle making and holster building. What I was trying to say (did a poor job of it) was that after having read two pages of posts, I am convinced (by you as well as others, again thank you all) that casting is the way to go, especially for the 358 and especially echoed by your statement, " Have you ever found a projectile that your gun really likes, and then you go to try to buy it and its out of stock, the ATF deemed it "unworthy", or the manufacturer discontinued it? Just wait, it will happen.". I couldn't agree more. I am looking to lessen my dependence as well.
    I just read your follow up post and what a great story about the resourcefulness and independence of folks. I will probably buy the star while I have the cash in hand and maybe even the #40 pot they sell although I have toyed with the idea of a plumbers pot and turkey burner using a Rowell ladle since I am not looking for high production, just quality output and consistency.
    Again, thanks for you help and also like your snazzy photo on the avatar!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check