what to do about pitting

[mdevlin53]

I have an old bolt action German made single shot rifle. When i bought it it had some pitting under the wood on the barrel near the reciever. This is a not just surface pitting some pits are perhaps .010 deep. I cleaned it well and coated it with balistol. today i was cleaning each one of my guns and when i got to this one there was a very small patch of new rust. I am sure i soaked the area but i might have missed a smal bit. My question is what to do with the patch of pitting? I could use a dremmel and buff it smooth. What is the best way to preserve this barrel with out making it worse. I will try to post a picture later today.

[Beekeeper]

Would you take the word of someone that plays with a lot of old rusty junk?

Remove the rust with some ed's red bore cleaner and steel wool.
If you do not use ed's red any bore cleaner or lite oil will do. I have used auto transmission fluid as well.
If it is deep use a wire brush. motorized or hand to remove the heavy stuff.
As a last resort use an electronic bore cleaner on the outside (there a couple of stickies on how to do it!)
When you are done cleaning use a good grade gun oil or as I do a premium grade synthetic motor oil on all surfaces.

As to the pitting if it is less than the depth of a front sight dovetail it should be safe ( disclaimer: it always has been for me)

The Balistol is a great cleaner but contains water and no matter how long you let it set it will trap some of the water underneath and create more rust.

Hope the above helps .


beekeeper

[oldred]

Rust is of course oxidation, the metal quite literally is on fire in one sense, and oil serves to block contact with oxygen to slow or even stop the rust BUT only as long as sufficient oil remains. Active rust will continue to spread unless something stops it so it is a good idea to inactivate the rust and stop the oxidation before applying oil, the oil does little to stop the actual rusting process itself and will serve only to deny more oxygen for the process to continue. Clean the rusted area with a solvent like Acetone to remove any oil present then apply a Phosphoric acid solution (Ospho, Rust-Mort, etc avaliable at some auto parts, Lowes or most home supply stores) to dissolve the rust and leave a protective phosphate layer on the previously rusted surface, after it has dried lightly brush away any loose or lightly adhering residue and then apply gun oil as you would for the rest of the firearm. Stopping the oxidation process first and then applying a protective oil is the way to keep it from coming back!

BTW, phosphoric acid will almost instantly remove bluing (it will instantly damage bluing!) so don't allow it to come into contact with any area except for the rust, I usually use a cotton swab to apply it.

[mdevlin53]

First the hint about the pits not being deeper than the dovetail groove is very comforting (they are not even close). This rifle is roughly equivilent to a 38-55 and i have shot it but only PB goes in the cases.
As for rust inhibitor in my youth they used to have a product called Naval Jelly and i think the Phosphoric acid was the main component.
As for bluing there is precious little left on this firearm but i would still apply anything with acid in it sparingly.
I read a couple of posts about applying various kinds of filler and paint but I think once you apply epoxy or Devcon and the like you can never tell what is happining under it so just keeping it well oiled seems like the right way to go.

[oldred]

Don't think of Phosphoric acid in the same context of substances such as Sulfuric or Hydrochloric (Muriatic) acids since it will not attack the steel in your gun, it will not it will only remove the rust. Phosphoric acid is also found in soft drinks in concentrations strong enough to remove rust and it is fact an old hot rodders' trick to remove rust from chrome with Coca-Cola.

[Reg]

You have to look at rust as almost a kind of cancer that will attack metal. The only way to completely stop it is to completely remove it. It would require drastic measures. Blueing is a form of controlled rust that actually penetrates the steel to a very minor amount and if I don't miss my guess, simple rust such as you have has there again, penetrated the surface of the steel. In short, you will almost have to undercut it to git rid of it, then of course, you will have to protect the new surface.
Now you don't really want to get this carried away as it will seriously alter the appearance of the rifle not to mention a lot of work. Don't think I would use any harsh cleaner like Navel Jelly as yes, it will get the rust but it will leave a horrible surface finish.
One thing you might try is first degrease the gun as best as possible then make up some kind of simple tank and boil the gun first in a Tide soap and water solution then follow up with just plain hot boiling water. This is often done as a rust killer on hot bluing guns. When it comes out of that last hot water bath it will have a virgin surface and will quickly rust like mad . While it's still very hot, apply a good water displacing oil. WD-40 would even work. While it's in the boiling hot water you could scrub it with a fine steel wool.
This will not get all the rust but it sure will slow things down. From there on in it's a matter of keeping an eye on things and if you notice a few more rust spots showing up then a application of a good cleaner, even Ed's Red and fine steel wool will help keep it clean.

[oldred]

Don't think I would use any harsh cleaner like Navel Jelly as yes, it will get the rust but it will leave a horrible surface finish.

Navel jelly could be harsh if left on the surface for a long time, hours or days, but as long as it's kept wet it won't hurt bare steel. The liquid Phosphoric acid solutions such as Ospho or Rust Mort do not attack steel at all and only dissolve the metal that's already completely oxidized leaving a very rust resistant phosphate converted surface that will no longer be conductive to further rusting. Phosphoric acid solutions such as these have been used for this purpose for well over a hundred years (the Ospho brand has been around about that long) and are still widely used today so it's not like this is some kind of novel new idea, still some people cringe at the mention of acid. I suppose the sounds of it, Phosphoric Acid, conjures up visions of corrosive industrial chemicals but it's not like that at all and these are solutions of the same Phosphoric acid used in soft drinks and are quite benign, even plain old vinegar would be far more harmful from a corrosive standpoint.

[mdevlin53]

Well this afternoon i ran a wire brush on my dremmel over the pits then used a fine pick to dig out any residue in them. i used a loope to inspect them and found i had gotten to bright metal in all of them. I coated it with gun oil while i decide on the next move. I am going to look into the rust inhibitors and decide what to use. I am wondering about a vat for the cleaning and what i could use or make. Have to give it some thought. Least the rust may be stopped for the moment.
Thanks for the advice.

[MBTcustom]

Reg has given you very good advice. Soap and water clean things that acetone will not touch and visa versa (trust me, I learned this the hard way.)
What I would do, is clean it locally with soap and water and steal wool. Then I would blast it out with carburater cleaner followed by an air hose, followed by almost any oil other than WD-40 (sorry Reg, pet peave) I use 3 in 1 oil a lot, its good stuff.
Then, I would be looking at the wood that contacts, or comes close to contacting the metal in that area. Lots of times, the wood caries residue from the chemical that got the rust started in the first place, or it carries rust particles themselves that get things started again. So clean and oil the wood as carefully as you do the metal.

[Tokarev]

Hmm, you are getting rust under wood. Almost sounds to me like wood is acidic.

[mdevlin53]

When i bought the rifle it had the pitting and i thought i did a good job of cleaning it up and coating it with a presevative. The rifle is in need of a quality sight that is not in the budget at the moment so it gets a lot of safe time. During the normal twice a year cleaning of all the guns i added a step this time to verify all the serial numbers for my record book. this meant taking the stocks off of several including this one, One pit had the barest of a rust bloom around the edge. that is what got me asking. Now with the pits cleaned out and aa plan for long term care for this old gun i will be able to hold off further decay.
But what i love about this board is the input i was focused on the metal and did not give the wood a thought i will inspect it and make sure there are no forgien substances on it and treat it to prevent any attacks.

[Bill*]

[QUOTE=mdevlin53;1960473] .....I am wondering about a vat for the cleaning and what i could use or make. Have to give it some thought.......[QUOTE]

Depending on what you're gonna put in the cleaning solution, I've used a plastic tub from Lowes that's sold for wetting wallpaper. Might not work for certain solvents though. Just a thought!

[Tokarev]

Stocks should not be soaked. If you want to pull grease out of wood, wrap it in cotton, then wrap cotton twine tight around cotton and moisten it with acetone. Put into a plastic bag that can be made of those rolls of vacuum machine bags. Keep overnight then change cotton and repeat until grease is completely moved from wood onto cotton.

If you absolutely have to soak a stock, then if the stock would fit, a length of PVC sewage pipe stopped with a screw cap adapter could work. And another screw cap would prevent evaporation. Need to test with your solvent first of course.

[MtGun44]

.010 pitting is not a structural strength issue at all.

Bill

[fecmech]

I have a Browning T bolt with one of Brownings "saltwood" stocks. They tried in the 70's a quick way of curing walnut by packing in salt. Some of the salt gets sucked into the wood and rusts the metal. I stripped and tried resealing the stock but the salt always seems to get through. The solution that's worked for me (over 5 yrs now) was I coated the receiver, barrel and stock internals with silicone dielectric grease and reassembled everything. I wiped off the grease that oozed out around the action and barrel and rust has not returned
Attachment 56429

[John Taylor]

Rust pits usually go a lot deeper than you can see. Any type of acid used will clean the metal but then you need to stop the acid form doing more damage. Maybe a coat of rustolium paint would be the answer after it is all cleaned up. I would think bead blasting and then heat to make sure there is no moisture trapped in the pits.

[oldred]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record Phosphoric acid is the ideal solution for rust pits as it will dissolve only the rust and needs only to be brushed off after dry, actually it wouldn't hurt a thing to not even brush it but it leaves a very light dusty coating. Once dry and brushed the metal will be rust free with a very light phosphate surface that is not conductive to further rusting and would need only to be oiled, neutralizing of this very light acidic solution is not necessary or even recommended since the normal reaction with the oxidized iron produces a rust resistant surface. Like I said earlier this stuff is not some new super duper wonder product and has been used for this purpose for well over a hundred years and it really does work quite well, not all acids are highly corrosive industrial strength chemicals and Phosphoric acid will attack only the oxidized metal and will not harm the base steel.

[mdevlin53]

I picked up some Ospho and and after cleaning and wire brushing again i applied it waited for it to dry brushed off the residue with a soft brush. Oiled it up and it seems good to go. I will be inspecting it on an increased frequency now to be sure. Thanks for all the input. It sure is great to have a place to get and share information.
Michael

[oldred]

I think it will solve your problem there and you will likely find many more uses for the Ospho, I have used Phosphoric acid preparations for well over 35 years mostly for auto body work. For light rusting I usually just soak the rust with the solution and wait about 5 minutes or so then wire brush rust that has not dissolved, for polished surfaces or chrome plating that has rust spots I use steel wool. For firearms I apply with a cotton swab so as to limit the area that comes in contact with the solution because it will remove bluing almost instantly so runs cannot be allowed to happen unless the bluing is to be renewed anyway. For confining the exposed area when dealing with heavy pitting a cotton ball moistened with the solution can be placed onto the rusted area to keep from drying out to quickly so as to give it time to work.

[Bren R.]

The liquid Phosphoric acid solutions such as Ospho or Rust Mort do not attack steel at all

Is Rust Mort still available? Used it quite frequently on car projects, they carried it at a buddy's PPG paint dealership. Haven't seen it in years.

Bren R.