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Thread: 357/44 B&D or .357/.44 Bain and Davis history

  1. #1
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Exclamation 357/44 B&D or .357/.44 Bain and Davis history

    Originally called the .357/.44 Dreadnaught...

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/3...and_Davis.html

    Looked for 44 AMP brass, found some (supposedly) at Grafs. Added the Speer #9 357 and 44 AMP pages. Added the article Feeding the .44 Auto Mag by George Nonte.

    Outdated link - I hate URLs with spaces.
    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/3...%28B&D%29.html


    Need help with the following:
    Looking for a copy of American Reloaders Association (ARA) Bulletin Feb 1969 #66 .44/357 Bain & Davis , if anyone has it, I would love a PDF.
    Scans from P.O Ackleys Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders would be good.
    A scan of the G&A "Big Bore Handguns", date unknown, would be sweet.

    Last edited by ohland; 01-20-2013 at 02:07 PM. Reason: Clean up

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    44Vaquero's Avatar
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    Love my 44 B&D! It is quite the performer in my 20 inch home made single shot.

  3. #3
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    I have one also along with a companion cartridge, 45 Colt necked to 41. It will nearly equal the 414 Super Mag in velocity and without the set back problems hot loads have in the B&D revolvers.
    Ken

  4. #4
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Look-it the velocities in a T/C. Wrap your hand around a fistful of power.

    By Lee Martin
    http://www.singleactions.com/BainandDavis.pdf

    "It becomes apparent that even with a shorter barrel, the Bain & Davis can exceed the Maximum by around
    150 fps."

    Moreover, the argument of case setback may be more myth than fact. Either we got very lucky in the guns we built or the redesigned Bain & Davis (ie, the gradual shoulder) is revolver friendly.

    //------ comment ---//
    Look at the charge of the Max and the B&D, the B&D is heavier. Empirical evidence is needed. As are dies. All in time...

    18 Dec - Brass and Imperial sizing wax showed up...
    //---------- //

    TC Contender Barrel Bullet (gr) Powder Grains Velocity (fps)
    .357 Rem. Max
    10" 158 W296 21.5 1,916
    10" 180 W296 19.3 1,700
    .357 B & D
    10" 158 W296 24.9 2,130
    10" 180 W296 22.5 1,895
    .357 Herrett
    10" 158 H4227 28.5 2,014
    10" 180 H4227 27.0 1,815
    TC
    Last edited by ohland; 12-18-2012 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Odd...

  5. #5
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Exclamation Gun World Jan 1964 loads

    Folks, I got my copy in today, and here are the loads from the article by Dan Cotterman
    "More Powder = More Power!" pages 30 - 34. The article shows the first shape with a longer neck. It also shows a case that has separated in half, while they looked for the upper edge of loads. FWIW, they separated four of the six cases from that cylinder...

    Page 33, Table of Loads and Performance
    Ctge. Davis .44/.357, cases W-W, S&W Model 27, 8 3/8 bbl.
    The Rem 158 gr Soft Point loads reached 1410-1490 fps. They do list a 150 grain boolit at... 1970 fps... as absolute max load. Remember, these were the heady days before unemployed corporate lawyers darkened the skies...

    I will scan the article when I can...

    Last edited by ohland; 12-26-2012 at 10:29 PM. Reason: details, details...

  6. #6
    Someday... Always admired this load!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    LUBEDUDE's Avatar
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    I used to shoot the Auto version. The 357 Auto Mag. The indoor ranges would not let me shoot it in the Pistol lanes since it exceeded 2000 fps?, if memory serves me.
    TEAM HOLLYWOOD

    NRA- LIFE TSRA-LIFE SASS-LIFE

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressman View Post
    I have one also along with a companion cartridge, 45 Colt necked to 41. It will nearly equal the 414 Super Mag in velocity and without the set back problems hot loads have in the B&D revolvers.
    Ken
    Any information about this cartridge? I might be interested in a future NMBH.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    LUBEDUDE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonie View Post
    Any information about this cartridge? I might be interested in a future NMBH.
    Sounds like a sweet combo!
    TEAM HOLLYWOOD

    NRA- LIFE TSRA-LIFE SASS-LIFE

  10. #10
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Exclamation Gun World Jan 1964 - 44/357 Bain and Davis article

    http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/3...401_357-44.pdf

    Sorry for the size, but I will not put something up that nobody can read...


  11. #11
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Exclamation Unleash the hounds of 357/44 (Bain and Davis)! American Rifleman, April 1970

    http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...ain-davis.html

    "Aside from the recommendations in the classic, "Cartridges of the World," the only printed reference I find is the April 1970 (p. 32) issue of the American Rifleman. There's a long article on this cartridge entitled, "Wildcat Cartridge Packs Kick." Author Bob Milek used a single-shot Thompson Contender for this article. Only jacketed bullets were used, ranging from 108 to 146 grs. Powders were H110, Unique and 2400. I'm reluctant to post loads, because this article was published 42 years ago. Perhaps an internet search would find this article offered online."

    Got my copy ordered.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Please note that my question was regarding that 41-45Colt cartridge, not the 357/44 B&D which I'm very familiar with.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Boy, they sure missed the prediction of a 32 cal based on 44 mag case...how often have I seen "blank will surely follow!" or some such.

  14. #14
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    Moonie, I never fully developed loads for the 41 Whitetail as it was called. I found a badly edited article about it in a late 1990's American Handloader magazine and had reamers made along with the dies. Redding charged me more for the dies than Ruger did for the revolver.
    It does not have the case setback issues of the B%D and early testing seemed to indicate that I could get more velocity than the Dan Wesson 414 power mag.
    I still own the revolver but have no time to shoot it.
    Ken

  15. #15
    Boolit Man hcpookie's Avatar
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    Hi all been a while since I posted and I'm glad to see the interest in my B&D articles. As requested I'm getting those hi-res scans together and will post when they are ready. Probably by the end of the week?

    I'm getting my dad to join up so he can contribute since those are his guns and his pet caliber... of course he needs to figure out how to sign up first

  16. #16
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Post Blast from the past

    In the realm of cartridges, there are a lot of wildcats from the 40s, 50s, and 60s that did not do well at the time, but with better propellants, have turned out to be quite viable. See the future through the past... The retro part is trying to improve the performance of past efforts without making twisted metal.

    The better we understand something, the better we can abuse it...


  17. #17
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressman View Post
    I found a badly edited article about it in a late 1990's American Handloader magazine and had reamers made along with the dies.
    It was in "American Handgunner" SEP/OCT 1998
    HSO9860 .41 Whitetail Goodman, Doug Sept/Oct 1998 Neck down a .45 Colt to .41 for perfect deer round.

    Sept/Oct issue on fleabay, "Lot American Handgunner Magazines 1998-1999", look at the middle magazine.

    Searching comes up with little... There was a White ".41 Whitetail" muzzleloader, if I understood it correctly...
    Last edited by ohland; 01-01-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    American Rifleman APR 1970 357/44 B&D article scanned "Wildcat Cartridge" Packs Kick


  19. #19
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Another published reference, of sorts... ARA Bulletin Feb 1966

    American Reloaders Association (ARA) Bulletin Feb 1969 #66 .44/357 Bain & Davis

  20. #20
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    Ohland, do you have a full set of the ARA Bulletins? I have some though I cannot pin down how long they were around. I understand they just faded away without any notice.
    Ken

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check