RepackboxRotoMetals2Inline FabricationTitan Reloading
WidenersLoad DataMidSouth Shooters SupplyReloading Everything
Lee Precision
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 44

Thread: Heat treating

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

    Lizard333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Flagstaff AZ
    Posts
    1,650

    Heat treating

    I figured I post this here. I know there is a lot of knowledge here about steel and heat treating.

    I'm in the process of building a barrel for a custom Remington 700 in 223. The guy that is helping me build the barrel has told me to order a 416R heat treated and resulfurized length of stainless steel 1 1/4 inches in diameter by 30 inches long.

    Heres the problem. The only place I know to get the steel from only get the steel that hasn't been heat treated. They want 160$ delivered. Is this a good deal? Also, where do I send the steel to get it heat treated?

    I have no clue about the different steels out there or what resulfurized means. Any help would be appreciated. If you guys know of a place to order the stock from, that would be a huge help as well.

    Thanks!!!
    "The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])


    Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
    Benjamin Franklin

  2. #2
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    i'm just throwin this out there.
    but you could most likely get a top of the line, cut,contoured,rifled,threaded,installed,and finish chambered bbl for about $300.
    if you are gonna do it yourself you have a ton of work and a lot of reading about how contouring a rifled bbl affects the internal diameter.
    squaring faces to mate the bbl/action.
    cutting threads.
    and chamber reaming.
    and buying/renting a reamer.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    Lizard333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Flagstaff AZ
    Posts
    1,650
    I realize it would be easier but the process of making the barrel is going to be half the fun. The lathes we will be working on we're made during WW2. These lathes are nearly 30 feet long and there are only 8 of them left in the country. I will be doing a 6 1/2 gain twist, start to finish.

    This will take us at least 8 to ten hours to drill and cut. Barrels made today are made in about ten seconds and are mass produced. No love.

    The cost of the barrel is just a small portion.
    "The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])


    Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
    Benjamin Franklin

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Posts
    633
    You know barrels are gun drilled, not with a lathe, but with a gun drill.
    What is your setup for rifling? the Bill Webb Rifling Machine? Why 6.5 gain twist? you trying to shoot 90gr serrias? Those have been put to the side for 223 by all the shooters who's opinion I respect. (90's need more powder than the 223 can handle to be effective at long range, the only person I know who shoots them worth a damn does it with a 22-250)

    And you can still buy cut rifled barrels from Kreiger, Obermeyer, and other top level manufacturers. Go to Kreigers website, there is a very good treatise on why they have such a hard time finding steel to make barrels that meet their standards. Something tells me that if you do find steel that meets that criterea, it is expensive as you have found out.

    If your just hell bent and determined to cut your own barrel, Might I suggest that you find an old pulled barrel in a caliber that has a groove diameter smaller than the bore diameter of the caliber you wish to create? That way all you have do do is bore and ream out the old lands, then re cut the new lands, all with proper barrel steel. Competition shooters such as myself cull barrels when they start shooting off call and often sell them for $50 or so or sometimes even free. I have purchased many kreigers that were shot out to teach myself chambering. You should be able to find a shot out stainless .204 ruger barrel from some varmint hunter somewhere. How about a green mountian barrel blank in .204?

  5. #5
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    or call some of the makers and just buy a blank from them.
    no hole no nothing just the blank.
    you'll at least know the steel is good and is from a certified batch of steel.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Plinkster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    237
    Cool, is that lathe a LeBlonde? We have a few big 'uns at the shop I work in but they use em to turn 18k lb titanium ingots. I'd almost give money to see a little gun barrel in one! I'm not gonna try and talk you out of the project but I will say to start in on arm exercises now as nothing on those great beasts moves easily.
    Is this a......what day is this??

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Reload3006's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    West Plains, Mo.
    Posts
    1,582
    There are lots of heat treatment companies. Find one and send it out. Being a machinist and tool n die maker I too am curious how you plan to rifle the barrel. Drilling it will be a real bear but rifling will be interesting on a lathe. Good luck.

  8. #8
    In Remembrance

    DukeInFlorida's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    East and South of you
    Posts
    3,566
    These guys are very good:
    http://www.gmriflebarrel.com

    These guys are also excellant:
    http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
    Last edited by DukeInFlorida; 09-26-2012 at 10:38 AM.


    NRA Life Member
    NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

    Author of a book on reloading
    ILSA MEMBER http://www.internationallawnsteelsho...ssociation.com
    NRA RANGE SAFETY OFFICER


  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Gateway to the Rockies
    Posts
    1,423
    $160.00 delivered. A good price. No.
    Facta non verba

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    theperfessor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Evansville Indiana
    Posts
    2,746
    Resulfurized steel is a type of steel (stainless or otherwise) that has a small amount of sulfur added to it to make it free-machining. Most stainless steel is a pig to machine.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

    MtGun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    eastern Kansas- suburb of KC
    Posts
    15,023
    Agree with the perfesser's comment, it is accurate, as usual.

    IMO, no heat treat is required for this application. Just normalized 416 is hard as the
    hubs of hell, you will have a *itch of a time drilling and cutting it if you heat treat it harder
    than "normalized" condition. Mechanical engineer with 38 yrs in industry and longer
    as a shooter and home gunsmith. IMO, unless you will have carbide cutting tools, you
    will be MUCH better served with 4140, again, in the "normalized" condition.

    Bill
    Last edited by MtGun44; 09-27-2012 at 03:14 PM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    theperfessor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Evansville Indiana
    Posts
    2,746
    Bill is right. The problem with most stainless steel is that the surface work hardens under pressure. Dull tools cause more pressure. Any machinist will tell you that when you cut stainless you have to cut it or get off of it. Letting a tool rub while the part spins is a sure way to make a surface that you can't cut through. Feed rates are set to be high enough that the tool cuts past the hardened layer .

    Now in traditional barrel rifling you're using a scraper blade to cut a very tiny amount of material away under pressure. It works great with traditional barrel materials, but I have no idea if it will work on stainless. There is a reason that newer methods of barrel rifling have been invented.

    That said, there is nothing wrong with giving it a try. Love to read about the outcome, you might just come up with a real winner. Carbide tooling and free machining steel gives you a fighting chance. Good luck!

  13. #13
    Moderator

    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ojai CA
    Posts
    9,872
    Having machined litterally lbs of 416 it is among the easiest SS to machine. As far as heat treating, there is not enough carbon in the material to get it much harder. It will work harden slightly but believe me this will be the least of your problems.

    Barrels are drilled on a gun drill not a lathe, there are two types, one turns the stock, the other turns the drill.

    Anytime the hole is deeper than 10 times the diameter, then gundrilling is the preferred method. Trying to drill the hole that deep on a lathe would result in a hole is about as strait as something that is not very strait.

    Gundrilling is usually charged by the inch. The hole needs to be reamed to size after gun drilling, this costs more. The gundrill is a specialized design that makes it's own lead. The point is offcenter and the drill literally trepanns the hole. There is also an oil pump with many PSI output that pumps oil down the holes in the drill shank to push the chips out the hole. Without this the chips just plug the hole and you're done.

    http://www.thompsongundrilling.com/ This guy is good and I have been using him for 25+ years

    It is really not economical to do a one off barrel. It might be considered fun but it will be expensive and frustrating fun. I have 35 years in a shop, I farm stuff like this out because it is a complete nother lifetime of techinical expertise to learn how to do it, and also I need it done right.

    Lots more to it than is readily evident. Lots more to it! Lots more to it! Lots more to it! before you jump off this cliff I advise that you actually go to a gundrilling shop and see what it is that they do. It is not a conventional machine shop by any means.

    Maybe ought to buy a whole 12' stick of the 416 SS. The wasted parts will make good tent stakes.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 09-26-2012 at 07:18 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    DCM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Upper midwest
    Posts
    1,681
    HUGE +1 on what W.R. Buchanan said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You are making it even harder on yourself by trying to make a small caliber.

    Are there any barrel makers in your neck of the woods? If so see if they will let you tour their shop. It may help you to better grasp what we are trying to do.

    For your first try at rifling I would not use stainless as you are making things even more difficult for yourself yet and you can make cheaper tomato stakes.

    W.R. is right this isn't going to be a walk in the park!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

    Lizard333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Flagstaff AZ
    Posts
    1,650
    I'll have to ask some questions when I get to his shop. I know that oil is pumped through the bit as the barrel turns around the cutter. I guess "lathe" was the wrong terminology. The guy that I will be working with normally makes barrels 50 cal and up including military barrels 20mm and up and six feet long. These tools are all a dull light green. I will get some pics and names of the tool.

    I know this isn't going to be easy, just a kick butt introduction into machining my own barrel.

    I am seriously considering clambering this barrel for the 22-250, as you are right about the 223 not being the best round for 90+ grain projectiles.

    I plan on swaging my own bullets, so I won't be limited to stock bullets and so so consistency.

    Does anyone have a location that I could order the blank from? Someone they trust? I've never used the weld shop in my area, so I don't know about the quality I'm going to be getting.
    "The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])


    Once the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
    Benjamin Franklin

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Sagebrush flats, Utah
    Posts
    5,543
    Gun drills can turn as much as 6000 rpm (some of them). A 3000 rpm chuck spinning one direction and the drill spinning 3000 rpm the opposite direction. Gun drills don't cut big chips, more like little scrapings. You can see that stainless could work harden in no time in this situation. Takes about 1/4 inch of too fast feed in a bandsaw to harden 1/4 inch stainless and ruin a blade. (example) It has to be cutting or it hardens. Cut needs to get below previous cut's hardening or it's all over.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    DCM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Upper midwest
    Posts
    1,681
    There are a number of people who make quality blanks Here in WI.
    A Bing search will show them.
    If you want to use 90+g projectiles use this to determine your minimal twist rate.
    http://kwk.us/twist.html

    I would try to make a barrel if you can there is much to learn. I am just saying there is better material to start with and better(larger) calibers to get your feet wet with too.
    It may be a VERY personally rewarding learning experience at the least.
    There is a ton of stuff you will experience and hopefully understand, metallurgy, tooling, machining etc. .
    If you are successful you may use the experience to promote yourself in other ways/expand your skill-set.

    All we are saying is this is far more challenging than most folks realize.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

    theperfessor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Evansville Indiana
    Posts
    2,746
    If you were using EDM to cut the rifling it would not really matter how hard the steel might be. I assumed from the OP's description of the age, etc. of the machines to be used that they are broach type or scrape type rifling machines, but you know what they say about assumptions!

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    Despite all the nay-sayers, it must be possible to gun-drill stainless, since there's bazillions of stainless barrels in use already.

    Looking forward to pics of the machine tool !
    Cognitive Dissident

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

    theperfessor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Evansville Indiana
    Posts
    2,746
    It's not the drilling I would be concerned with its the rifling.

    With EDM or hammer forging it shouldn't matter. With other methods it might.
    Last edited by theperfessor; 09-27-2012 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Darned iPad keypad GO button...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check