I believe the cast lead rifle boolit is the most effective projectile in the world.

[MBTcustom]

You win. I'm off on a quest for a 2100-2200 fps 35 Whelen hunting load.

Just don't do what I did in the OP. Use a harder alloy or go slower and you will put deer down with authority and not ruin a bunch of meat in the process. I only posted this so that booliteers everywhere can rest assured that their home cast boolits can do everything they need them to and then some!

[TXGunNut]

Couldn't agree more, Tim. My issue is accuracy, think I'm pretty close on the alloy and don't want to go harder. I'm looking for a hunting cartridge with a little more velocity that what my other CB rifles have to offer. I may write that goal off as an excuse to (re)build a rifle in a new-to-me chambering.

[MBTcustom]

As long as it's harder than 9BHN, you should be fine (remember that pure lead is like 5-6). Put it at the standard 15-20 and it should save you some meat.
Try it with IMR3031. I believe you will find that if you are using reformed military brass, you just can't get enough 3031 in that case to be unsafe. Get the maximum load you can get in that case without having the boolit get pushed back out by the powder, and you should be at about 2300fps. (of course do not exceed listed max loads in your manual!)
Use the RCBS 35-200-FN. It should drop with a .350 nose, and .359 driving bands. Get a .360 sizer to crimp on the GC's. This gives you a stepped boolit that is extremely accurate and clean shooting.
Get a neck expander to chase the sizing die with that has a diameter of .357-.358 so that proper neck tension is realized, and make sure it comes to a flaring taper instead of an M die step. When you seat the boolit, set the crimp so that it brings the flare down just enough to make it a friction fit in the chamber. This aligns the neck in the chamber.
Enjoy my "secret tips" LOL!

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, Tim! I'm using correct stamped Hornady brass and the RD 359-190. I like the RCBS mould, just don't have one yet. Expander is a BACO custom .358 but the sizer out of my RCBS 38-357 set actually works pretty well, too. Still working on the crimp, this rifle seems to like a little more crimp than the minimal crimp I prefer but that's on the table too. My ACWW bhn is 10-11 but it seemed to require HT'ing to 20bhn get to 2400 fps. My 50/50 w/ a touch of tin and maybe some hard shot does just fine to a little over 2K with heat treating in my 35 Rem so I think it will get the nod when I throttle it back a little. 3031 and RL7 weren't very happy @ 2400 fps but I suspect they're worth another try at a lower velocity.
This rifle (Ol' Ugly) suffered thru my attempts to learn how to load the 30-06 30 years ago, now she's going thru it all again as a 35 Whelen. She's not as forgiving as she used to be but after all she's been thru she has a right to be a little contrary.
I have some cases in the cleaner, will get them loaded up with 3031 and see how she likes life in the slow lane. Thanks again, Tim.

[madman]

you will not need to penetrate body armor with this set up you just have to hit them and crush all the internals. Very impresive.

[Changeling]

I have no idea what you are searching for, but that much damage on a deer is rediculious!! I think you should reconsider your loads and reason for hunting all toghether. Pitiful way to end a noble animals death. They are deer/venison that people like to eat, NOT rats!

[NewbieDave007]

I have no idea what you are searching for, but that much damage on a deer is rediculious!! I think you should reconsider your loads and reason for hunting all toghether. Pitiful way to end a noble animals death. They are deer/venison that people like to eat, NOT rats!

Did you bother reading through the thread? Also, you are 100% allowed to your opinion, but you might want to rethink what/how you say things.

[white eagle]

being honest isn't always popular

[runfiverun]

Changeling:
the purpose of the thread is to show what can go wrong and discuss what needs to be changed to make things right when the velocity exceeds normal cast velocity's.
it's not a glorification of gore.
it was a question made by someone just learning the 358 [and velocity]

I don't see anybody making fun of someone using a 338 ultra-mag to shoot a 150 pound buck.
especially when the results are quite similar.
yep the carnage would be expected there, it was NOT here, and the OP wanted to know why.

[popper]

Now I gotta go dig the target out of the trash & measure the hole dia. (maybe 10%?) I noticed my 30/30 holes were smaller than the 308 holes, shot into 3/4" fiber wall board @ 100. NOT a hard target. Boolit is 31-165 3% Sb with some Cu, close to new COWW. 30/30 is AC, 308 is H.T.'d, both been sitting for > 1 month. ~1500 & 2400 fps. If my assumption is correct, ~ 2k fps & COWW should give reasonable expansion in normal game without the 'spatter' of softer alloy.
EDIT: 16% in the 308 & NONE in the 30/30. Meplat is 0.180, meplat hole is 0.209. Puts a 1/2" deep crater in concrete so it should bust bone OK.

[taco650]

Now that this thread has degraded to opinions by people who by their postings show they haven't read the entire thing, I'm going to unsubscribe.

[MBTcustom]

I have no idea what you are searching for, but that much damage on a deer is rediculious!! I think you should reconsider your loads and reason for hunting all toghether. Pitiful way to end a noble animals death. They are deer/venison that people like to eat, NOT rats!

I take full responsibility for that shot.
This is what lead up to that shot being made:

Up till this hunt, I had only hunted with one boolit and I knew exactly what the effect was on the game. The boolit went in, tumbled, and exited sidways. Quick, clean, humane.
Unfortunately, that boolit wasn't very accurate, so I decided to use the RCBS 35-200-FN which had proven accurate in every rifle I had tried it in (and still does to this day).
The reason I had not hunted with that boolit up till that point, was that it had a small little flat point on it, and I was concerned that it would not be effective enough to stop a deer as quickly as my go-to boolit would.
Therefore, I thought I would see how soft I could make them and still get subMOA accuracy.
Turns out, I could use a very soft alloy and maintain accuracy up past 2100fps. I sure hoped that would get me close to the same results as my go-to boolit, but I was still concerned about that little meplat on that boolit.
"Oh well" I told myself "I'm sure that if I put it in the right spot it may do good enough".
I just didn't think that a cast boolit was all that effective as I had never seen anything but a hole about three times the size of the projectile as an exit wound.
When I shot this deer, it was on a good trot at 75 yards and would not stop when I called to it. I was hunting in a ravine that was very steep with lots of ups and downs and gullys and washes so it was imperative that any deer shot must be stopped almost immediately, otherwise it might tumble into a spot that was impossible to recover it from.
I lead that deer a little further than I should have when I dropped the hammer, so I was racking in another round as it hit the ground, sliding down the opposing side of the ginormous erosion ditch that I was hunting in (it was so deep in there it would echo if you yelled).
I was grateful that the deer didn't need a second shot, so I figured the little RCBS did OK after all.
I hiked down the ravine, and found there were three huge ditches to cross before I could enjoy crawling straight up the other side of the ravine to collect my deer.
I left my rifle against a tree and clawed my way up the hill (no small task for a fat guy like me, I assure you!).
It was so steep, that I climbed up above the deer, gave it a kick, and me and the deer slid down the hill together.
That was the easy part!
Dragging the deer through the ditches was interesting, then going back up the way I came in (about a 30 degree slope over tree roots and boulders) by feet went right out from under me and I body slammed my rifle on a boulder, scaring the stock and scope.
Finally at the top, I was so winded, I had to sit down for a minute and give rest to my burning legs, trying not to think about the 1/2 mile drag I had to get back to my buddies trailer house (albeit a relatively level drag thank God).
All those clothes I was wearing started peeling off because I was producing enough heat to hard boil an egg in my hunting jacket. I just left my jacket and overshirt and backpack on the trail to be picked up later!
Finally getting back to camp, I strung up the deer after taking a few well earned drafts of cool water.
Skinning it out, I suddenly realized just how effective a fast moving, soft cast boolit can be! I took the pictures with my phone.
Once back in civilization I gave the deer to a friend who was out of work and needed the meat.

Once back home, I was putting up my gear and reflecting on how one shot had changed my opinion of the effectiveness of cast lead boolits forever. I don't feel the need to work up some wiz-bang load anymore because in fact, the cast lead boolit IS the most effective hunting projectile in the world! All this time, I thought I would have to do something really drastic in order to get a cast lead boolit to perform as well as a jacketed hunting bullet, and suddenly I realized that I had it 100% backwards! It's the jacketed bullets that need all kinds of special help to be as effective as cast!
I thought I would post about it to help other people learn, and perhaps undo some of the thinking that has been drilled into our heads by all the gun rags since childhood.

My final thought in this post is to say that I do not think of deer like rats. Deer taste better.
A life is a life. It's either wasted or taken for a purpose.
Have you ever had some deer meat freezerburn? Has your freezer ever gone out on you and ruined some deer meat? What about all the other "noble" animals in there who's lives you take for granted?
If so, I would submit that you are no worse a sinner than I am. You just took longer doing the deed.

[NewbieDave007]

This is one of those times I wished there was a "like" button. Thanks for sharing your experience Tim.

[richhodg66]

Tim, I'm beginning work with a .358 lever gun now and also plan t use the (NOE clone) RCBS 200 grain bullet. So far, the loads I've shot in it did better than I'd have figured, but I haven't tried what I'd consider deer hunting loads yet. I'm think of trying your 35 grains of 3031 (oddly, that's what I used to load in my .35 Remington) with that bullet cast of 50/50 plus 2% tin and seeing how it works. I like this rifle a lot and am pretty sure it'll be my primary deer rifle for a while.

[Ozarki]

Thanks for sharing this, Tim. Fascinating information

[Digital Dan]

I'm sorta fond of soft lead at moderate velocity. Slowing them down doesn't insure a lack of carnage, especially when they hit bone. 300 grains of pure at 1600 fps MV. Impact probably around 1450-1500 fps

[IMG][/IMG]

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have been blessed to hunt Africa three times. Pardon me, but I think you mean for non-dangerous game. Elephant at 9, 15 and 35 feet have a way of making a man reconsider his load. Ditto for wounded Cape Buffalo at 30 feet.

Rich

[popper]

Tim, your point is the reason I posted #172. The corelok hits like Digital Dan's pic when it hits bone. So does an FTX. My boolit is a FN, not WFN. It expands on something softer than deer hide, @ 2400, but not at 1500. If I soften it and run slower, I might get expansion but if I miss & hit a shoulder instead of heart/lung, Maybe I got a broken shoulder and injured animal, probably no blood trail. Faster & I get thru & thru.

[Digital Dan]

Popper, FWIW the bullet above broke both forelegs, 7 ribs and cut the top of the heart off on a large doe. Bullet was under the offside hide, but there wasn't any tracking involved.

[popper]

And 2X the energy of a 150 30 cal. @ 1700 fps. You must have hit the shoulder to take out the rest of the stuff. Not saying it doesn't work. 50 yd shot?