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Thread: I believe the cast lead rifle boolit is the most effective projectile in the world.

  1. #141
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Weddle View Post
    That is quite a destructive boolit combination. Take neck shots and the head will probably fall off, plus you'll loose less meat.

    Do you think the boolit tumbled or expanded?

    I often wonder about using pure lead or at least a soft alloy.
    Maybe if I can polish the barrel I could shoot them.
    I shoot wheel weights in the 45-70 water dropped, 330 grainers. It does make them a bit brittle.
    As it is it begins to lead at 1580 FPS, but it is accurate to 1.5 inches at 100 yards.
    My personal theory (not having been able to ride the boolit like our lovely mascot all the way to and through the deer) that it's a combination of Boolit expansion, speed, boolit design, and the intended target.
    You can shoot a HP boolit and get an energy dump, you can shoot a FN boolit and get a shockwave, or you can shoot a 300 winmag with a super hard jacketed bullet and get penetration, but when you quit trying to make just one of these your sole focus, and instead learn to balance them so that they play off one another, magic things happen.
    The boolit impacts the game at saucy speed and the FN sets up a shockwave, and the nose of the boolit deforms, following the damage and making it greater rather than penciling past it. It popps out the other side of the game at 1/10 the speed that it hit with, and twice the diameter, because it gave all it had.
    When you can get the boolit expansion to follow the shockwave, and have just enough speed to keep the boolit in that place, then you get what you see in the OP. I think there are "sweet spots", or combinations that do this, and it applies to jacketed as well as cast, and it occurs all over the speed spectrum.
    I know guys that have absolutely killer combos that use a 45 caliber boolit at subsonic speeds. These loads have more effect than another load that is faster.
    Why do you think there is such a stark difference between 45-70 performance and 444marlin? Many would say that the .444 has superior effect.
    Why does a .270 Winchester generally have better effect on deer than 7mm magnum or 300 Winchester magnum? There is very little difference the speed, and only slight difference in bullet style and design, and yet, the results speak for themselves (albeit blood shot meat is not the results that we are particularly looking for here).

    When I say that the cast lead boolit is the most effective projectile in the world, I mean that tit for tat, its ability to have an effect on game is much greater than jacketed projectiles are able to, for good or for bad.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #142
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    I have successfully pushed 9BHN boolits to 2400 FPS without a trace of leading. Part of the reason for this is the fact that I reamed the chamber of my rifle absolutely straight (you would be surprised how few smiths actually know how to do this. If they tell you that even high end rifle barrels are not drilled straight, then they haven't got a clue)
    My theory is that because the chamber launches the boolit perfectly straight, I am able to get greater speeds and RPMs, but that is just a theory that I believe to be true. Otherwise, I am misreading the evidence.
    Now, it is true that accuracy fell apart past 2200 FPS, but that could easily be explained by not having the propellent dialed in just so, and I took no care to make sure to control the concentricity of the neck.

    Regardless, I state very clearly in the OP that the speed was at least 2050 FPS, no leading, sub MOA group, and soft 9bhn hardness (even now after 6 months).
    Last edited by MBTcustom; 08-04-2013 at 06:56 PM.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  3. #143
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    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot: Seems to me from what your sayin', my idear of using 20:1 or 5% tin added to the WW will be too hard for WI hogs & deer?!? I'm still testing for the sweet spot with IMR 3031 [all I've got now]. Shooting for lead deposit testing, 48g of 3031 seemed to start leading near the muzzle around 1600+FPS. I'm using White Label's Tumble Lube. I surely hope my best groups shoot a lot softer than using 48g! p.s. My cast weight is 395g-398g.

    Thanks much to Goodsteel and yourself for contributing your time unselfishly for us newbies.

    Wally
    Been loading 6.5 CM for ELD, learning to load Mosin Nagant & .308/7.62x51
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    LEE #90697, 453-200RF, ditto

  4. #144
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    I'm finally beginning to think that trying to get 2400-2600 fps out of my 35 Whelen is a waste of time and resources. I don't shoot long distances and a 200 or 235 grn chunk of repurposed WW ought to do just fine for TX deer and hogs at a much lower speed.
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  5. #145
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    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot: Seems to me from what your sayin', my idear of using 20:1 or 5% tin added to the WW will be too hard for WI hogs & deer?!? I'm still testing for the sweet spot with IMR 3031 [all I've got now]. Shooting for lead deposit testing, 48g of 3031 seemed to start leading near the muzzle around 1600+FPS. I'm using White Label's Tumble Lube. I surely hope my best groups shoot a lot softer than using 48g! p.s. My cast weight is 395g-398g.

    Thanks much to Goodsteel and yourself for contributing your time unselfishly for us newbies.

    Wally




    Wally, you need better lube. You are running out before the boolit clears the barrel.

    As far as lead hardness goes in my .358 Win., I use air cooled wheel weights. They have worked for deer, bear, elk, and bison. Did a dandy job on all.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  6. #146
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    try adding 20% bees-wax to your tumble lube.
    it helps the lube flow better.
    that's what I use in my 45/70 at 1650 fps. [on top of 2400]

    the boolits meplat/alloy make up/ and velocity being balanced is what makes the round work at the higher end.
    I run my 358 win just over 2300 fps but use the saeco #248, it has the smaller meplat so it works with the velocity better.
    I also use an alloy of 75% ww's and 25% soft lead with a wiff of tin.
    the performance is quite similar to jaxketed.

  7. #147
    Boolit Master
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    Walstr,

    No, and I'm sure there are better qualified folk here then I, but 20 to 1, WW/tin "should" not be overly hard. But possibly harder then is needed or really wanted ---- especially if you quench or temper them.

    Everything I read says that tin is NOT what really makes the alloy hard, as we might think of linotype being hard.

    Look at Wheel Weights for example, which commonalty is said to have about .5% tin. The antimony is the primary addition that makes the WW and linotype what they are when it comes to hardness.

    AS I recall, there is something else - arsenic? - in the WW that has an effect when quenching or tempering.

    However, tin is an expensive addition to an alloy if you need to buy it, and there have been millions and maybe millions of millions of boolits cast of just plain Ol' run of the mill WW, which cast very well and shot just fine.

    And remember that is with approximately 1/2% tin.

    The maker of my current mold, Bruce (BABore) recommended that I use an alloy of 50/50 - WW/lead and then quench the bullets as they drop from the hot mold. THIS IS EVEN LESS tin in the alloy and the boolits cast/shoot great.

    Seems most folk add tin to increase the ease of casting good boolits, but with good molds and proper alloy and mold temp, it is just an added expense in most cases.

    BUT if the addition of that amount of tin does make your WW boolits harder to any degree, they just might be harder then you need or want.

    I would think that Bruce's recommendation of WW/lead might make an overly soft boolit, even quenched, but taking of game, up to and including a couple elk has not shown it to be so.

    I sometimes see a but of "leading" in the last inch or so of the barrel, but it is so minor and comes out so easy, it is not an issue. Then with White Label "BAC" lube, it is basically gone.

    So, afraid this is not much of an answer, but personally I'd skip the addition of the tin as something that does little good, is an added expense, and in worse case might make your alloy a bit on the hard side.

    One tip Bruce gave me was to allow the boolits to age a minimum of 7 days after casting and quenching, with 14days being better. He also said that his hardness tester said the boolits were OK for use in less time, but his rifle told a different story.

    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  8. #148
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    I only add tin to my 6mm boolits, for easier fill out.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  9. #149
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    the alloy issue is something altogether different.
    arsenic is a grain refiner [it makes the molecules pack together tighter]
    in higher amounts it is a surface tensioner which is why it is used in shot.
    the small amount of tin [.25ish%] also acts as a grain refiner.
    cutting the antimony down allows the boolit to be malleable and flexible, while the water dropping brings back the external hardness to handle the rifling better.
    adding more tin changes the whole program, as well as the surface of the boolit.

  10. #150
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks runfiverun!

    CDOC

  11. #151
    Boolit Master Adam10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Weddle View Post
    Can 2000+ MV FPS be done with soft alloy and not lead a barrel?
    Yes. A GC will help matters as it will allow the use of a bullet that is softer than the BHN for proper obturation to be used. There is a pressure consideration when a GC is warranted and it varies with the cartridge. It isn't so much velocity as it is pressure. Pressure is the consideration, velocity is just the result of the effort.

    I like the lower velocities, in the range of 1500 fps because it doesn't do meat damage from a hydro-shock wave, but still kills deer and elk just fine.
    For big dangerous tough game that bites or steam rolls over you I see value the higher velocity.
    Even in those situations, heavy bullets at moderate velocity are better. Applies to both cast and jacketed bullet the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by TXGunNut View Post
    I'm finally beginning to think that trying to get 2400-2600 fps out of my 35 Whelen is a waste of time and resources. I don't shoot long distances and a 200 or 235 grn chunk of repurposed WW ought to do just fine for TX deer and hogs at a much lower speed.
    Welcome to our world. That's why I'm building a 100y rifle out of a .358 Win with a velocity cap of 2,000fps solely for cast bullets. The .30-30 set the standard and made a nation say "wow". That means something.
    "A man may not care for golf and still be human, but the man who does not like to see, hunt, photograph, or otherwise outwit birds or animals is hardly normal. He is supercivilized, and I for one do not know how to deal with him." - Aldo Leopold

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  12. #152
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post

    Welcome to our world. That's why I'm building a 100y rifle out of a .358 Win with a velocity cap of 2,000fps solely for cast bullets. The .30-30 set the standard and made a nation say "wow". That means something.
    My loads average 2170 fps, and give me a point blank range of 225 yards.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  13. #153
    Boolit Man
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    [QUOTE= Just imagine if you had Hollowpointed that puppy. [/QUOTE]
    Might draw attention from game wardens accusing you of using a grenade launcher!

  14. #154
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    Welcome to our world. That's why I'm building a 100y rifle out of a .358 Win with a velocity cap of 2,000fps solely for cast bullets. The .30-30 set the standard and made a nation say "wow". That means something. -freakshow10mm

    Thanks! I feel the .358 Win is a better CB cartridge than the Whelen but I had a 30-06 lying around, not a .308. I know I can cast harder and go faster but I doubt terminal performance will improve, it may even decline a bit. My 35 Rem does fine at less than 2000 fps and my 45-70 is more than adequate at an even more sedate pace. Agreed about the 30 WCF, today's lowly thutty-thutty was a wonderful hunting rifle when it was introduced almost 120 yrs ago. For some of us it still is.
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  15. #155
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    Fatter - slower - deader...be careful the HV bug doesn't get you like the jacketed boys
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  16. #156
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    50 million buffalo can't be wrong...
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    You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
    You cannot further brotherhood of a man by inciting class hatred.
    You cannot build character and courage by taking away people’s initiative and independence.
    You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

  17. #157
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You win. I'm off on a quest for a 2100-2200 fps 35 Whelen hunting load.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
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    Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.

  18. #158
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXGunNut View Post
    You win. I'm off on a quest for a 2100-2200 fps 35 Whelen hunting load.
    Be sure to post what you come up with. Inquiring minds want to know.

  19. #159
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    I think there are more than a few good threads around here on the subject. Just need to take the time to review them. I have several powders in the correct burn rate range, just not sure the powder charge is the problem. No shortage of data, just not looking at it right yet.
    Current theory with the boolit I'm using is that a lower velocity would allow a softer alloy which in turn would give better performance on paper (and live) targets. OTOH I could be using the wrong boolit. Time to play with something else for awhile, just need to get a handle on it before it gets too hot to shoot rifles.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
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    Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.

  20. #160
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    I recently became the owner of a .358. I have the NOE group buy clone of the RCBS 200 grain bullet, one cavity of which is hollow pointed. I have a number of powders that should work, looking forward to using this on a white tail or two.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check