This has been a remarkably informative and interesting thread. Thanks goodsteel, and thanks everyone for their mature input.
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This has been a remarkably informative and interesting thread. Thanks goodsteel, and thanks everyone for their mature input.
Plata o plomo?
Plomo, por favor!
This has been a remarkably informative and interesting thread. Thanks goodsteel, and thanks everyone for their mature input.
Thanks, yes that is my concern. What I'm looking for is enough hardness to prevent nose slump and base deformation but ductile enough for the midriff to obturate at the pressure I need to get a decent velocity. On top of that, I was wanting enough ductility to mushroom on impact but now I'm realizing that's not necessary. I did end up with an alloy that was way hard witch I'm now softening or going to use for hardening a fresh batch. I'm thinking of chucking all my unknown hard alloys into one pot and casting pyramid sinkers for hardening future alloys.and as Goodsteel indicates, do that increase in hardness very slowly
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Goodsteel, the bones were from beef ,pork and a few sheep. Mostly leg bones that were a BIT larger than the deer I usually shoot. I tried them at various ranges from 25 to 200 yards over the years. Calibers from 7MM to 45-70. I even shot them with my .50 Nite muzzle loader to see the effect. A farmer that let me shoot ground hogs had a problem with his sheep. He asked me to dispatch them, as the vet wanted to much $$ to do it. That was an interesting experiment. They were shot from a few feet to 100 yards. Then the wounds were examined carefully. I used a 7-08 and a 30-06. the bullets were 135 and 150, 7MM and 311291,311041 and a Lee pointy 185 grain. I deliberately FN the pointy and RN bullets after shooting some sheep with normal bullets. In EVERY case the wounds from FN's were larger than RN's. The depth of penetration was affected also, NOt all shots were broadside by design. A Rn31291 would often go clear thru the animal at most any angle. The FN's would go thru the vitals , but NOT exit. I felt kind of bad for the sheep, BUT if I didn't kill them the farmer would have to PAY. He MIGHT have not allowed me back for the ground hog's.
One swallow does not a summer make. One fluke "blow up" of a shoulder does not an impressive bullet make, either.
You may have misunderstood the gist of the topic. A blown up shoulder to us, is bullet failure.Originally Posted by beefie
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
It's not a singular boolit I am talking about. I have seen many other pictures of such things since I posted this.
The point of this thread was to show that cast lead in general has powerful effect on game and in fact, can be overdone at measly 2000 FPS speeds.
I never would have thought that possible had I not seen it with my own eyes, so I thought a picture posted would speak louder than 1000 words.
I didn't post it to show what I thought was an ideal way to put meat on the table. Far from it!
I posted the picture to make everybody think twice about what is really needed to make an effective kill on deer.
So many people have bought the "super hard bullets going super fast" routine hook line and sinker, and doubt that any projectile going less than 2400FPS (30-30 speeds) would reliably kill a deer. In fact, there was a time when I would have argued that as fact.
There comes a time for every booliteer, when you look up from your rifle in astonishment and realize that these things work better at low speed than jacketed bullets do at high speeds. The whole argument comes unraveled before your very eyes.
That's what happened to me with this deer.
I had been hunting for two years with cast lead boolits based on the word of men I respect here on the forum, but was still concerned that I would wound an animal, or maim them so that they die a slow and miserable death, because lets face it, cast lead boolits are just too slow to be effective!
My mind was changed with one shot.
Not only did the deer die suddenly (like a piano dropped from a three story building) but I actually overkilled it with extreme prejudice!
The boolit had too much effect! At barely over 2000FPS!
That never never never would have happened with a jacketed 35 caliber bullet of similar shape. It's just too stinkin hard for its own good.
Sorry if that does not a believer of you make.
Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.
That's good news because it's kinda hard to get an accurate cast boolit over 2000 fps. But faster does give a little more range although I always find that critters seem way further when I am hunting them.
So would it correct to say a boolit at 1800 fps with the appropriate alloy is best? Appropriate meaning that a little expansion takes place at a longer range?
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Yep, been very happy, like extremely happy with my 465gr WFN at 1650fps.
Then this past Thursday while testing the same boolit with RL7, I saw one of the best groups fired from this rifle at just under 1900fps.
Now I have seen the results of a 355gr WFN at 2300fps and I sure don't want any more of that!!!! Just how can a non-expanding boolit create that big of a hole??
So if my tests to day with the RL7 confirm the groups, am I going to be happy with the velocity increase?
Hmmmmmmmm ??
Well let me see what the targets show today. Then of course, I would need to find a supply of RL7 and that may not be easy to do, meaning I'd need to fall back to my stash of H335 for the measly 1650fps load that kills like Thor. Oh Well!
Into each life a little rain must fall
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Beefie,
The posters on this forum have seen a multitude of impressive results from cast boolits. Welcome to a whole new way of looking at bullet performance.
Don't think cast bullets are capable of excellent performance? Seen any buffalo lately?
Yep, I guess I had to take a step of faith when I bought into the Wide Flat Nose cast boolit/bullet group, but a couple of elk and a few deer have made me a real believer.
Just no way a non-expanding bullet could make a wound channel like that. Ya right, it can and does in spades!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Holy Smokers!
Some good some bad, maybe -----------
The confirmation tests with the RL7 didn't prove out the results of those first test, so guess I just be forced to go back to the H335 load and be forced to kill a few more elk and deer at the humble velocity of only 1650fps.
Oh well.
well, if you'd argued that as a fact (2400 fps minimum) you'd be denying all the millions of deer taken with Ky rifles, handguns, 30 carbines, handgun caliber carbines. Which would make you look pretty silly. and no, I didnt misunderstand anything. Flukes happen all the time. Basing any sort of claim upon one (or 3) happenings is silly. anyone can toss a coin, now and then, and quite often get 5 straight "heads", (or 5 straight tails) It takes over 20 tosses to establish that one or the other is just luck.
Just so i understand you right, you are saying that performance like this is a fluke? A wildcard? A one in a hundred shot?
Hmmmm. You could be right.
How hard do you cast your boolits?
How fast do you shoot them?
Have you ever shot a deer with a soft cast boolit? From a centerfire rifle? at 2100fps?
Just wondering if you can solidify your position with a little additional information.
You think I'm wrong?
Please, don't let me mislead anybody. Teach me otherwise. I'm all ears.
Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.
I have just informed Beefie to shape up, or I am shipping him out. Looking at his posts in several topics, he is a troll. I gave him until the end of the weekend to shape up, or ship out. Let me know if I miss anything. I'm old, I'm grouchy, and I will definitely skip a troll *** down the road.
The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"
Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!
As a Mod I respect this decision and mean no disrespect, BUT it did ruin a bit of entertainment! LoL
Just when Tim was givin him plenty of rope for a old fashon lynching... LOL
If necessary feel free to delete this message just let me know via PM
maaan,, I was just getting out the lawn chair too.
The entire argument distilled down into a small paragraph.
Years ago I regularly went through a training program designed to get folks to think differently about what they were doing and how to approach it.
"Quality is conformance to requirements"
Quality can have any meaning whatsoever, as long as you perform some function and it is done to fit your idea of what you want it to do.
Big flat nose, tough alloy, make it go fast. Kill fast, kill far, limit meat destruction.
Sounds like quality to me,,,,
BTW, when I checked in on this thread yesterday I thought it kind of sad that Tim keeps having to repeat what he said in post #126.
After following this thread for the past few months, all I can say is I want to test it for myself. I understand the fact that j-bullets are a 20th century invention. I've shot my share but I also realize that prior to the 20th century, all game shot and killed with a firearm was killed with lead bullets. I'm a firm believer in the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Go for it Taco650!
The only thing I'd recommend is to be sure and use the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast boolit, something of good weight, for example over 400gr in the 45/70 and DON'T try for warp velocities as they are not needed. The only advantage to the higher velocity, is a decrease in the high trajectory, but it comes with less penetration - a possible issue on larger or dangerous game - and the non expanding WFN will leave a hole in a critter all out of expectation if the velocity is excessive.
AS I've said other times and places, I read a lot about eating right up to the whole with cast boolits, but I had no idea the hole would be so big.
That was on my first cast boolit critter with a 355gr WFN at 2300fps, and I find the 465gr WFN at 1650fps to be a MUCH better choice. Still VERY DEADLY!!!! but not greatly destructive.
So, go for it, I wish I'd started down this path much earlier in life.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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