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Thread: I believe the cast lead rifle boolit is the most effective projectile in the world.

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Blammer,

    I also will be interested in your results!

    I realise you are talking .35 caliber and not .45 caliber, and not knowing what your bullet profile is, that is also a possible difference in the results seen.

    However, using a 355gr WFN cast in my 45/70 at a muzzle velocity of just over 2300fps, the results were not pretty.

    Waaaaaay to much over kill and much too large of a wound channel.

    That being my first cast bullet kill on a game sized critter I was very surprised at the major over kill caused by this non-expanding WFN bullet.

    My current WFN 465gr at 1650fps is awesome on game up to and including elk, and much more to my liking.

    Keep us posted.

    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  2. #62
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    I've hunted with cast bullets extensively. No big deal, so have many of you. I became very interested in the expansion properties of various alloys in combination with caliber and bullet type, some being my favorite for bottle neck cases, that is the two part or two alloy cast bullet. Two part hunting bullets are as simple as having two pots of alloy going. One with the metal for the body of the bullet (hard alloy) and the something on the soft side like Pb but more likely 1 in 20 tin - lead for the nose. Pour some from one and then some from the other until you learn what to do to get the bullet you are looking for.

    Ya-know, Lead bullets work! Cast load hunting bullets can be VERY simple. Those doubters need to be reminded. Untold millions of American Buffalo are not roaming the plains and hills due to the great effectiveness of the cast lead bullet. Those Buffalo bullets lots of times were nothing more than lead. Most of these buffalo hunters did not even cast lead/tin tho in some cases they were. Mostly just plain lead.

    But back to the point. Here is one true thing. Larger, heavier big bore cast bullets are easier to make work. They operate at lower velocity just fine. Bullets for modern, at least somewhat more modern bottleneck cases of small caliber need to be more sophisticated. Faster, lighter, smaller diameter bullets deliver more energy (work) to the target per grain of bullet alloy. This higher demand can produce bullet failure. OR, in some instances, it can produce spectacular wounds! But, you won't be "eating up to the hole" unless you like blood sausage. This demand on the bullet as the weight and diameter goes down is like driving nails into oak with a framing hammer. If the nail finds a hard spot or knot and it is a 20 penny it may stand a better chance of pushing on through. If with that same hammer blow you slam into a 6 penny nail it may make a paperclip out of it self. So you need to cast a stronger 6 Penney nail if you are going to drive it with the same energy.

    I got so into this in the ‘80’s and early ‘90’s I would spend summers after the snow got out of the roads in the high country shooting cast hunting bullet concoctions into various combos of snow drifts, water jugs and boxes of rags in order to expand and catch bullets to examine. The goal was to try different rifles out on elk every fall to see what would happen. I shot the big bores early on. ML in 54 cal. and the 45 cartridge rifles like the old buffalo guys did. They are what perked my interest.... to see if it could be done with other rifles. But this evolved into what I described above. Using 338-06, 338-08, M-71 Winchester .348’s, 35 Whelen, and the 375 H-H I cast, tested and refined my hunting loads for the real deal in fall.

    Woa, look at the time, maybe more later, gota go………..
    -Michael Rix
    Chill Wills

  3. #63
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    The only thing to be said is that your alloy is not intelligent and doesn't know what you want of it. You are that part of the equation. Shooting an animal in a heavily muscled area with a HV soft boolit leads to the part where you are the one not doing your job.

    If your going to expect a soft boolit to do well here, put it where it can do it's job without the excess destruction...... OR (depending on which alloy your using, you've said 50/50 and straight WW) water drop the 50/50 boolits. Even HPs do very well when you put them where they need to be put to kill something.

  4. #64
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    375 h&h ?

    Chill Wills--Would you care to share some of your load details on the 375 H&H ? I'm using the 375248 and 32 gr of 3031 with a TP filler. I don't have a lot of powder choices, but do have H4895, RL7, and RL15. I'm getting 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards, but the rifle does .730 with 270 grain TSXs and 66 grains of H4895. I would like to see 1 1/2 inch or better. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks, sharpsguy.

  5. #65
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    sharps guy there is 3-15 guy's working with the 375 H&H on here.
    I know btroj has one and is getting a mold cut for it right now, and duke nukem has one also.
    you might want to just start a thread and see who is doing what with it.
    I know the 375449 is fairly popular.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    The only thing to be said is that your alloy is not intelligent and doesn't know what you want of it. You are that part of the equation. Shooting an animal in a heavily muscled area with a HV soft boolit leads to the part where you are the one not doing your job.

    If your going to expect a soft boolit to do well here, put it where it can do it's job without the excess destruction...... OR (depending on which alloy your using, you've said 50/50 and straight WW) water drop the 50/50 boolits. Even HPs do very well when you put them where they need to be put to kill something.
    I did exactly what I set out to do. The whole idea was to make the most destructive cast boolit that I have ever used. I designed the rifle, the alloy, the load, and the lube to accomplish this goal. The only unknown was just how destructive can a cast lead boolit be?
    I did not expect these results, but I can learn from them.
    Perhaps, by posting the results here, someone else can learn as well. Had I swept it under the rug, they would not?
    Tim Malcolm
    MBT custom rifles & gunsmithing
    www.goodsteelforum.com

    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  7. #67
    Boolit Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    Indeed!
    I was paying attention when you (I believe it was you) mentioned using a torch to anneal the tips of hard water dropped boolits and that may be another viable way to do damage control.
    I am still hoping to put together some ballistic gel to test some of these things on something other than my table fare, but with Christmas coming on, I don't think I'll have the extra scratch to put together a few blocks of the stuff. Oh well, all things come to he who waits.
    I got some 300 degree tempilaq (paint on, not crayon), and painted the noses of some .44 cal boolits. Heat it until it melts with a pencil torch, viola (sp, heh, heh) and annealed.
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  8. #68
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    I did exactly what I set out to do. The whole idea was to make the most destructive cast boolit that I have ever used. I designed the rifle, the alloy, the load, and the lube to accomplish this goal. The only unknown was just how destructive can a cast lead boolit be?
    I did not expect these results, but I can learn from them.
    Perhaps, by posting the results here, someone else can learn as well. Had I swept it under the rug, they would not?
    OK... as you say..... BUT, the others that have tried the same thing and posted their stories with pictures (on this site) of very damaged deer didn't seem to have any effect on your efforts... that is you didn't learn from them. In my experience here, you tell somebody something that has been tried and has worked well for over 25 years for you is that they will bust their rear end to see if it's true or not rather than learning something from it. Re-plowing the same ground is not an effective use of time or components. But, should those people live long enough they might come to the same thoughts themselves.

  9. #69
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    Well, I confess, I have never seen anything like this. I run experiments and post my findings here. That will not change, it's why we're all here.
    I'm not skirting the issue or blaming the results on anything or anyone else. I take full responsabity.
    That said, I believe that the order of priorities when deciding to kill a game animal is to make it quick and painless as possible, and I accomplished that goal soundly. I lost some shoulder meat, but I could have done much worse, had I placed my shot 6" further back wouldn't you say?
    Why beat me up over this? I lost a pound of meat. My meat. Why is that a more important issue than observing and learning from the results?
    How many fellers get on here complaining about leaded barrels? A very short perusal would answer all their questions quickly, but they ask anyway. It's their journey. Let them walk it. This is where I was last year. This year will be different. I will be using what I learned to my advantage.
    I learn very much by reading, but I don't catch everything. There are a few lessons each of us will learn the hard way no matter how many hours we spend in front of the computer. That's OK. People have learned by experiance for centuries, and made much worse mistakes than using too much medicine on a game animal.

    That being said, I am still amazed that a cast lead boolit could actually be considered "too much" in any situation. Speed has been firmly destroyed in my mind as being the deciding factor in a projectile's effectiveness, and that is the point of this whole thread.
    Tim Malcolm
    MBT custom rifles & gunsmithing
    www.goodsteelforum.com

    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  10. #70
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    Goodsteel, THANK YOU so much for posting this thread!! Those who WILL can learn from your efforts and these results. Don't be discouraged by those who would demean your efforts.
    HABCAN.
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  11. #71
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    Sharps man, PM me and or start a new thread on the 375H&H which would be a good one too. I do not want to hijack this one.

    Goodsteel, I can tell by your writing you don't need my validation but Carry on. You are out there doing it and posting your data. One real trial and error experiment is worth one thousand keyboard opinions. Doing IS what I'm about. Sharing information is what this forum is for. I think a few grumpy old men keep a lot of lurkers from posting for fear of getting ganged up on.

    Anyone that is offended, lets move on and Please forgive my editorial.
    OK- I'm back to cast hunting bullets. It's a great topic.
    -Michael Rix
    Chill Wills

  12. #72
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    Tim, contrary to what others and you probably think, i'm not trying to beat on you. This site has a lot of knowledge to be used at your finger tips....... why not use it ALL to get a better idea of what you need. As far as 6" back.... it sounds like your not sure about what happens. Pictures are here to show you. You can also ask questions about what to use, you just have to know what to use and what to discard..... and that is not easy at times here.

  13. #73
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    MANY years ago I tried a bullet cast with a piece of Aluminum foil held between the faces of the mold. A 420 gr GCed fn, the foil went to the front driving band. Essentially a split bullet. Fired from a 45-70 BOLT rifle at over 2200 fps into the neck/ shoulder of a deer at less than 75 yards. There were THREE exit wounds on the offside of that deer. Same bullet at ~1500 fps from a Contender (15" barrel) left one large exit. I guess SPEED does kill a little better! That first deer almost lost its head, there was a LOT of damage to the neck shoulder. I purposely aimed for the shoulder for maximum damage and put down. These were NOT eating deer but culls from a Military area.

  14. #74
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    I usually aim for the hear lungs.
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  15. #75
    Boolit Master taco650's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HABCAN View Post
    Goodsteel, THANK YOU so much for posting this thread!! Those who WILL can learn from your efforts and these results. Don't be discouraged by those who would demean your efforts.
    HABCAN.

    +1, I agree.

  16. #76
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    I think threads like this are some of the best, and most informative to newbie cast boolit users. Carry on!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    I think threads like this are some of the best, and most informative to newbie cast boolit users. Carry on!
    I couldn't agree more. Thanks goodsteel!

  18. #78
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    Very informative thread and good read. I have to agree, the deer is dead and that was the goal, I don't see the issue. Heck, here in Virginia we have so many Whitetails and so few hunters that unless I am making burger I don't even use the front shoulders. The thread has helped me as a newbie to cast boolits understand that you can at least sometimes shoot softer boolits at faster speeds. I thought before that I would need to be at BHN 20 or higher to push my 9.3x57 or x62 280gr bullet to 2000 fps. Now I know maybe BHN 16 would be better and mushroom better. A dead animal that can be found is the objective so why does it matter if sometime there is some additional meat loss? We are not talking slaughter beef cows in a barn yard. Bones will be hit on occassion and bigger holes will result, so be it, I like DRT.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokepole50 View Post
    Very informative thread and good read. I have to agree, the deer is dead and that was the goal, I don't see the issue. Heck, here in Virginia we have so many Whitetails and so few hunters that unless I am making burger I don't even use the front shoulders. The thread has helped me as a newbie to cast boolits understand that you can at least sometimes shoot softer boolits at faster speeds. I thought before that I would need to be at BHN 20 or higher to push my 9.3x57 or x62 280gr bullet to 2000 fps. Now I know maybe BHN 16 would be better and mushroom better. A dead animal that can be found is the objective so why does it matter if sometime there is some additional meat loss? We are not talking slaughter beef cows in a barn yard. Bones will be hit on occassion and bigger holes will result, so be it, I like DRT.
    Bravo!!!
    Finally, this thread performed its intended task!!!
    Sweet sweet fruition!!
    Tim Malcolm
    MBT custom rifles & gunsmithing
    www.goodsteelforum.com

    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  20. #80
    Boolit Master trixter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrick View Post
    What a silly thing to say. It's not hunting that takes much time, it's that pesky working for a living that takes up so much time.

    I agree with others that said to slow it down a bit and see it the accuracy is still there.

    Rick
    That seems to be exactly what happens to my fishing too.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check