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Thread: I believe the cast lead rifle boolit is the most effective projectile in the world.

  1. #41
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    I have never had trouble getting consistent accuracy with a .358, but I tend to use heavier boolits, too. It brings to mind when I was still using jacketed bullets, and shot an antelope with a light for caliber bullet in .338 Win. Mag. I could actually see daylight through the critter when I shot it, and never used a light bullet again. A 250 gr. always performed pretty much like a cast boolit should, with being able to eat up to the hole.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  2. #42
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    blammer:
    i thought you had a modified saeco mold built from the samples i sent you?
    remember terrence sendin me a blueprint to look at.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  3. #43
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    Lotta food for thought here. I've been fooling around with the 270 grain flatpoint (70% meplat) I use in the 9.3 x 62, striving to get repeatable accuracy at 2000-2100 FPS like I do at 1700 FPS. If what I'm reading here is true, maybe I should just leave well enough alone. At 1700 FPS, these boolits run 1.00"-1.25" at 100 yards very reliably and repeatedly, while at 2000-2100 only the first 3-4 shots hold together--then start expanding radially if lubed with Javelina; I haven't been able to try these out with Lars' Carnauba Red, or as scaled boolits (yet). The hunting loads are cast as BruceB Softpoints, 90 grain donor slugs of unalloyed lead for the points (Lyman #257312). Shank portion is 92/6/2.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  4. #44
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    runfiverun, I did draw one up but it never ran as a GB. I'm still needing a copy of that one.

    until I WQ my boolits I couldn't hit much, afterwards I can't miss.

    tomorrow I get out the chrony and clock the load.
    vmthtr@charter.net is NOT my paypal addy

  5. #45
    Boolit Master youngda9's Avatar
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    I just shot my first cast loads out of my Ruger 77 .358 last night. I loaded 230 grain boolits(Accurate 35-230D) over 38gr H4895 as a starting load. Should be about 2000fps muzzle velocity. I was able to shoot three groups at 100yds before it got dark. They averaged 5 shots at 1.2" CTC with the best 4 shots being 0.75" CTC. So there is definitely promise. I had the boolits seated right up against the leade. I am going to do some further testing with cartridge OAL for accuracy to see what it likes before I walk up the charge to see where accuracy disappears (or leading begins). I am using WDWW boolits that are lubed with 45/45/10(Recluse lube). I size and seat the gas check right after casting and then dip the grooves into a mini crock pot full of the melted lube. One more pass through the Lee push through sizer wipes off the excess lube and fills the groove with lube. I purchased some plastic containers off Ebay to line up my bullets and store them so they won't be damaged.

    This will be my deer load, and possibly close range Elk one day. I have no doubt after reading this thread that it will perform very well on game. I try to always take a broadside double-lung shot on game. If I ever need to take a shoulder shot if the broadside shot doesn't present itself then I have no doubt the 358 with cast boolits will make bacon.
    Last edited by youngda9; 11-27-2012 at 11:34 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    I never realized how much time hunting takes!
    What a silly thing to say. It's not hunting that takes much time, it's that pesky working for a living that takes up so much time.

    I agree with others that said to slow it down a bit and see it the accuracy is still there.

    Rick
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  7. #47
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    You have to admit though, that this load would be just the ticket for coyotes and varmints.
    My original goal was to see just how fast I could push air cooled WW alloy and still keep sub MOA 100 yard groups. I am chasing the load with my new rifle, and getting faster and faster, but I only got to 2050 when deer season got here. I have a load here that can sustain a clean bore with repeated firings. I was completely amazed at the level of destruction that this boolit caused, but my original goal was to see how fast WW lead can go without stripping. I probably will never shoot at deer with this load again, but that was not the original thrust of this project.
    Even though I am sorry to have wasted so much meat on this deer, I figured that it may not be a total waste if I posted pictures and figures that others can learn from.
    For instance, with performance like this, who needs ballistic tip, thin jacket, varmint bullets? I know its not ideal for shooting deer, but look at the big picture! There is an application for a rapidly deploying boolit that causes massive trauma.
    There is a lot of area on the fringe like this that has not been explored yet. I was trying to give you fellers a baseline for what is possible when you do this, this, and this.
    If all I wanted was a hunting load, then I would run a hard alloy and water quench it. Been there, done that! I am experimenting with How fast? How far? How soft? How much damage? and especially, I want to have a bunch of pictures and facts that disprove the superstition that jacketed bullets somehow have more to offer than cast boolits. This will be very instrumental in bringing more people into the sport and thereby bolstering it so that it does not go away.
    The common belief (which I used to subscribe to) is that a cast lead boolit does not cause enough damage to be an effective killer. That statement is wrong in so many ways, starting with the assumption that blood-shot mangled damage is what kills.
    First, I want to explain to curious people that a cast lead boolit is capable of absolutely explosive performance which allows it to fill the needs of the varmint shooters. I can then move on to try to explain that this is entirely unnecessary to a clean, humane kill and submit evidence that supports that standpoint.
    The main thing that I want to explain to folks is that the cast lead boolit is versatile! I want to have a portfolio of effects that I can achieve with a single boolit, ranging from economical sub 1200FPS plinking, to rock-'em sock-'em varmint blasting. Imagine what this boolit will do to a coyote or a hog if I succeed in getting it up to 2400FPS.
    Finally, if I gather enough data, I will be able to decide what alloy will produce the most favorable effects on the intended targets/game animals.
    This was simply a WAG on my part. I expected a 2" exit wound and nothing more. I was very surprized and excited to see what actually happened because that means that a soft cast lead boolit has even more potential effectiveness than I had ever imagined! The point of this thread is to say that if the cast lead boolit can do this, then the options are even broader than might have been expected.
    Just please do me a favor and dont just blindly reject what you see here as a lousy shot! Lick your pencil, flip your notepad and learn from it!
    Tim Malcolm
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  8. #48
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    What exactly did the boolit hit, that might be the important thing to know here.

  9. #49
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    As far as I can tell, it hit nothing but soft tissue. The deer was shot through the neck, broadside, just in front of the right shoulder, and clipped the front of the left shoulder upon exit. I don't believe the boolit hit any sort of bone whatsoever. There was no boolit holes in any bone in the deer. The boolit severed the esophagus and the carotid artery, in front of the foremost rib and under the spinal cord. What you see is just soft tissue damage.
    Tim Malcolm
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  10. #50
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    tim:
    i went through this but backwards with home swaged 223 bullets.
    i was getting too much penetration and no explosiveness,even with the thin 22lr brass.
    i was using a fairly hard core and not annealing the jaxket.
    as i progressed through core hardness and several different annealing depths on the jaxket nose i found i could control the expansion,and the violence it occured with.
    i could go from penciling through a ground squirell to the bullet opening like a nosler to it opening like a varmint bullet all with the core hardness and amount of annealing and amount/type of exposed lead at the tip.
    you now have a baseline type boolit, find a media and test what else happens compared to what you see here.
    one deer isn't the whole picture but it, and what you shot it with, are enough of a start for a comparison in a different media.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    tim:
    i went through this but backwards with home swaged 223 bullets.
    i was getting too much penetration and no explosiveness,even with the thin 22lr brass.
    i was using a fairly hard core and not annealing the jaxket.
    as i progressed through core hardness and several different annealing depths on the jaxket nose i found i could control the expansion,and the violence it occured with.
    i could go from penciling through a ground squirell to the bullet opening like a nosler to it opening like a varmint bullet all with the core hardness and amount of annealing and amount/type of exposed lead at the tip.
    you now have a baseline type boolit, find a media and test what else happens compared to what you see here.
    one deer isn't the whole picture but it, and what you shot it with, are enough of a start for a comparison in a different media.
    Indeed!
    I was paying attention when you (I believe it was you) mentioned using a torch to anneal the tips of hard water dropped boolits and that may be another viable way to do damage control.
    I am still hoping to put together some ballistic gel to test some of these things on something other than my table fare, but with Christmas coming on, I don't think I'll have the extra scratch to put together a few blocks of the stuff.
    Oh well, all things come to he who waits.
    Tim Malcolm
    MBT custom rifles & gunsmithing
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    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  12. #52
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    This just a "FWIW" post, but I do a large amount of small varmint shooting with castings of 24 and 25 caliber and the 32-20, all of which run about 1700-1800 FPS. I don't regard jackrabbits or ground squirrels as table fare, and rest assured that castings running 1700-1800 FPS at the muzzle will SHRED small critters to 150 yards+ most decisively. Boolit shape doesn't seem to matter--spitzers or spire points in 243 and 250 Savage do as well as the round flatnoses in the 25-20 and 32-20. The few coyotes whose coats I've dusted off locally only seem to be about when jacketed bullets are chambered in the Mini-14. I would like to take on a few song dogs with these smaller boolits, I'm sure they will be effective. None of these boolits were/are soft-pointed, either--all have been homogenous 92/6/2 castings. If effects on iron silhouettes are any valid measure of striking energy, I connect on iron coyote cut-outs at 200 yards with all of these chamberings, and the clang produced at that distance is pretty significant--even from the flat-nosed bullets. Summed up......these cast boolit rounds are more powerful--as accurate--and less expensive than buying 17 HMR ammo.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  13. #53
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    I have used the 358009 cast from acww and shot from my .35 Whelen at 2000 fps and had some impressive tissue damage, but nothing like what yours did.

    I went with a .30-30 single shot this year and truthfully was a little worried as to what the results would be. I shouldn't have been. Using a 311041 cast from 9 lbs ww and 1 lb 50/50 over 28 grs 4895, broke one rib going in, took out both lungs, broke two more ribs going out and a golf ball size hole through the off shoulder. Shot was at around 45 yards, so velocity was still up there.

    As far as cast on varmint sized up to coyote, 50 - 75 yard shots with a .357 magnum rifle using 348429 over 14.5 grs of H110 has been awesome to more than adequate.

    I agree with the original staement on this post concerning cast boolits. I would be a very happy man to hunt with nothing but cast for the rest of my life. For me, I have to get closer than with jacketed loads, but isn't that part of what "hunting" is all about?

    Steve

  14. #54
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    Allen i wish you would have come with me and littlegirl {Dawn} shooting those ground squirells after the nevada cast boolit shoot.

    there may be some more by next year
    our final count was over 600 rounds [what brass i could find anyway] from the two biggest days we had.

    Tim annealing the nose does work.
    remember it returns the alloy to it's origional state,however if you use the boolit within a day or so it is very soft just like a regular cast boolit.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  15. #55
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    Thanks for sharing ..
    looks like the old addage applies.. Learn and adapt ..
    by posting this we know what to avoid

  16. #56
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    Well, that's true, we all know what to avoid now, but that's not the reason I posted this. I don't know anybody (that I have read about here) that has documented pushing soft boolits this fast, and observed with pictures, what effect it has on game. I posted this to show that the cast lead boolit is capable of amazing destruction at 700-1000fps less than a jacketed counterpart.
    I used to be of the impression that cast lead would not expand, cause it didn't have any ballistic tip-hollow point-bonded core-scored jacket, controlled expansion-super awesome sweetness. That was a superstition, and nothing more. There are many people (dare I say most shooters?) that thing that way, and I just thought maybe this would turn a few heads in favor of cast lead boolits. Most of the fellers I hunt with would call that a homerun. The bigger the hole, the better they like it. In fact quite a few of them have asked me to make up some of these for them (of course, like a good booliteer, I told them the only way is to do it yourself LOL!)

    Anyway, I think my results (terrible as they are) show one thing for certain. The cast lead boolit is the most effective (as in causes an effect on the target?) projectile in the world bar none. No jacketed bullet that I have ever used can give this level of destruction at less than 2700fps.

    On a side note, I did find out that these boolits work darn well in my S&W 19. Very accurate!
    Tim Malcolm
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    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  17. #57
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    I should have stated avoid as a deer hunting load..
    All the info you have posted here is IMO very valuable .. People can make their own informed choices on how to apply that info ..
    and that was my point (decidedly not well stated) the more info we have to draw from the better we are at our task..
    I wish more people would post not only their successes but also what did not work

  18. #58
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    Indeed, but there are situations where explosive performance is preferable. Varmint hunting for instance.
    Tim Malcolm
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    "He who is enslaved by the compass has freedom of the seas"

  19. #59
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    I have an RCBS 35 200 that I water quench and push at 2400fps out of my 35 whelen. I FULLY intend on smacking a deer with it. Pictures will follow and the comments will fly I'm sure. I have shot this load at 200yds and get great grouping with it so any bambie 200yds or closer is in trouble. Including the one that is trying to hide behind a 4" tree.
    vmthtr@charter.net is NOT my paypal addy

  20. #60
    Boolit Master youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blammer View Post
    I have an RCBS 35 200 that I water quench and push at 2400fps out of my 35 whelen. I FULLY intend on smacking a deer with it. Pictures will follow and the comments will fly I'm sure. I have shot this load at 200yds and get great grouping with it so any bambie 200yds or closer is in trouble. Including the one that is trying to hide behind a 4" tree.
    I really look forward to reading about this. Will you be aiming for the shoulder or the lungs?

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
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