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Thread: High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

  1. #81
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    Sizing is a function of toughness. Final boolit size desired is the dynamic fit of the boolit to freebore-leade when the gun is fired until when the boolit passes the max pressure point. After that the barrel should be tapered to maintain a smooth pressure drop. This section usually occurs too fast to visually see on a scope when using a single "cheap" tranducer. Besides, who says the gun has a perfect crown? Usually, only BR guns do (or did in my case). ... felix

    Sharper the max pressure point, the faster the whip amplitude. Faster the whip amplitute, the more important the boolit leaves the muzzle when the boolit is moving the slowest, hopefully not at all. ... felix
    Last edited by felix; 12-19-2012 at 02:34 PM.
    felix

  2. #82
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    Last edited by badgeredd; 06-23-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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  3. #83
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    For the future, I'm interested in the Cu sulphate method. Although the weight of the boolit doesn't matter a whole lot to me, I'd like to get a little closer to what a boolit is supposed to weigh. As an example I have a NOE 6.5 bullet that's supposed to weigh 163gr. With the high Sn alloy it weighs only 153.3gr.

    With the 6mm Eagan bullet I was using, bigger was better, but that was more a result of poor fit in the 5R barrel from the beginning. As someone named Joe once told me, compared to a jacketed bullet, these alloys are still butter soft.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

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  4. #84
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    Last edited by badgeredd; 06-23-2014 at 04:56 PM.
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

    Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.

  5. #85
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    I finally had a chance to cast some boolits with the copper blended alloy I made a week or so ago.
    It took some fiddling to get it going. It seems to want a higher pot temp, around 725 or so.
    Also as someone else mentioned, if you wait too long to cut the sprue you have a chore on your hands

    The trouble I had, is the pot o' melt seemed to want to oxidize the tin to the surface very easily.
    Way more than my usually bout of WW + sn. I had to flux a LOT to keep it in there-
    I suspect it's a side effect of running the pot hotter? I normally run ww+sn at 625-650 with good results.
    I also am a ladle person and running the melt through the air seems to make it oxidize quicker than I think it should.

  6. #86
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Jim, a pinch of anydrous citric acid, and I mean a tiny pinch, from time to time will slow the oxidation of the tin. If you check some old babbitting books, you're about at the lower end of the pouring temps they recommend, and they also recommend the journal, which in our case would be the mold, be heated to around 400 degrees. Back to the pinch of citric acid, it will pacify things for awhile, then it's time for a pinch more. Smaller than standard sprue holes may be a help with the cutting. I wouldn't cast with my drip-o-matic with this alloy, too much instant oxidation as the alloy flows through the air.

    I have some 6mm bullets cast and aged. Loaded them to a level that gave me 2450fps and 1.5" groups with a slightly heavier bullet. I'm expecting better of this new NOE bullet. Shooting report will be ready in a few days.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

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  7. #87
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    OK, so is the anydrous citric acid available in a store known as what? Googly search, came up with
    AlkaSeltzer, & fruit preservative, in the canning section maybe?

    yeah, the instant oxidation was my problem even with a ladle. A few pours and its time for oatmeal

  8. #88
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Hmm, mine isn't that bad, but it doesn't bother me at all to exceed 800. Let's see where did I get that stuff. You don't want the stuff in cans, it has silicon dioxide in it. Here it is, used to increase the bioavailability of antibiotics for livestock: http://www.qcsupply.com/540923-citric-acid-410-gm.html Their resident vet insured me there was no sand in it.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

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  9. #89
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    Hey, the Ranch Store! Why didn't I think of that? Time for a field trip to Murdochs Ranch & Home

  10. #90
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    lemishine is 96% citric acid.
    i don't know about it being anhydrous, but it is a powder.
    i'd try covering my pot with some kitty litter or something but it wouldn't work well with a ladle.
    you'll have to be careful and slow with your ladle movements to avoid introducing any oxygen into the alloy.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  11. #91
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    No citric acid of any sort, that I found so far in town, except for the stuff with dextrose and other goodies for canning.
    I've seen Lemishine liquid here , not sure about the powder version
    The powder could be kilned in the heat treating over to rid it of any moisture

    Madsenshooter- I was having difficulty with wrinkles -more than ever, so your comment
    about being on the lower end of the casting temp is right on the money.

  12. #92
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    Well, I got the first round of the copper boolits heat treated yesterday, did a bunch of
    the wrinkly junkers just to see how they harden up.

    Seriously thinking, for no more of these than I need, I might just get the right
    alloy from Rotometals and be done with it. I like the DIY stuff, but.
    Maybe its just the 15 degree weather getting to me as I cant play outside like I want too

    my mix was whatever % of Cu went into the tin, then 50/50(ww+pure)+.5 Sn/Cu alloy
    We'll see what they come up to

  13. #93
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    I'm just starting in this insanity nanuk- hopefully the fellers already do in it will chime back in.

    I tested one of my guinea pig boolits after 24 hours.
    Holy carpel tunnel - 23.8 bhn only 24 hours after heat treating.
    Wonder how hard these puppies are gonna get?

  14. #94
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    sorry, my post got deleted as I had asked that question elsewhere, but found the reply didn't answer my question.

    I think this area is exceptional for highspeed boolits, and if they can be pushed to moderate Jword speeds without a GC, then so much the better.

    as edd said, 3000fps without a jacket is the goal, but if 2600 or so without the check is doable, that would be a huge step up.
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  15. #95
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    nanuck-

    I can partially answer your question. I have used Edd's alloys in plain based Mihec 360640's (170 grn) for the .357 Magnum Carbine. The boolits were air cooled, not water dropped; and the BHN was measured at 18. The load was 14.5 grains of 2400 for 1,740 fps out of my USRAC Trails End with the 20 inch barrel. No leading, and improved accuracy as mentioned in a previous post here. With 3 part alloys a gas check boolit would have been a given in my carbine with this load.

    I would have to say that what I have experienced so far leads me to believe that it may be possible to push a plain based boolit to higher pressures with one of Edd's copper enriched & balanced alloys. I just haven't tried it yet; and how much higher is anybody's guess at this point.

    Seems to me that a good first step test in that direction would be to mix up a batch of Edd's alloy, cast them in a plain based mold designed for a .30-30; size/lube, and load them over jacketed bullet data using powders such as 4198 or RL-7. A quick trip to the range should tell you if plain based boolits can withstand higher pressures.
    -Matt
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  16. #96
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    Smile

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    Last edited by badgeredd; 06-23-2014 at 04:58 PM.
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

    Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.

  17. #97
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    2 days after heat treat, my copper boolits are up to 28 bhn

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    Last edited by badgeredd; 06-23-2014 at 04:59 PM.
    Charter member Michigan liars club!

    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."

    Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.

  19. #99
    Boolit Master
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    Holding steady on day 3
    I'll have to wait till spring to do the wet newsprint test. I'd be shooting into a block of ice right now
    Last edited by Jim Flinchbaugh; 12-31-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgeredd View Post
    Jim,
    Don't be surprised if they continue to harden for another week or so.

    Edd
    Don't be surprised if they continue to get a bit fatter also. It takes a mic to see it but they grow in diameter for quite some time. It can really screw with the way you seat the boolits when going for full engagement of the throat/rifling. I have switched over to a full 6month "ripening" stage on my water quenched cu alloys before loading ammo that will be stored very long. When loading for full engagement on break action single shots the growth can actually be felt.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check