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Thread: High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

  1. #501
    Boolit Master berksglh's Avatar
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    No, melting coper wire and dripping into molten lead wont work. The molten lead is way too cold and will actually cool and solidify the copper.

    Ive been gone from this post for about a year, but I did mannage to alloy coper wire into lead inguts by TIG welding and slowly pooling small amounts into the lead thwn remelting into a large alloy batch and repeating till youve added the desired ammount.

    The arc from the TIG welder efectivly gets the lead at a small area under the arc hot enough to mix effectivly with the melted Cu wire. If you get greedy and try to add too much Cu to a single spot, it doesnt mix in and later floats out when its all melted. Also you can only add so much before the whole ingot overheats and melts, so I did it in cupcake tins.

    Takes some practice to get it it down, but it is a workable option.

  2. #502
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    More tinkering with the Cu alloy. made some what IMO is Pb/Cu only. Cast fine (BP), sprue froze pretty fast, 40SW with old worn out Lee 175. Weighed 185. WD some that after a day are slightly harder (squish test). Pounded the AC flat, got down to ~0.015 on the edges with NO evidence of fracture or peeling like pure.Click image for larger version. 

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    I had to use pliers to break the first (~0.10" thick) Second is still hard to bend.
    FYI might work for low pressure loads that you want to mushroom but not get blown off. I'll probably PC some and shoot.
    Whatever!

  3. #503
    Boolit Master
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    How did you make the alloy?

  4. #504
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Long story how I got there but basically tossed a couple zinc pennies in, then Zepp, pulled off the powder dross and cast. Tinkering so I put the Lee into the pot to preheat. Started to make some high SB/Cu alloy for rifle, muffin'd most then tossed in some pennies, scraped off the dross (working on low Zn alloy), more muffins, Zepp again, cast. Probably just the Pb/0.3%Cu left.
    edit: coated the 40SW with BLL, I'll report when the weather gets better & I can shoot. I expect a much larger dia hole in the 3/4" fiber backer - I could try for the 2x4 support?
    Last edited by popper; 01-04-2017 at 04:02 PM.
    Whatever!

  5. #505
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Shot the 185gr Lee (both WD & AC) & 165gr accurate (AC isocore) with 4.5gr 231 for both (900 & 950 fps). wasn't trying for accuracy but wanted to check expansion and leading. No leading, no extra expansion I could tell,no leading. Groups are marked - didn't post a new target. Guess I have a new cheap alloy for the 40SW, coppered pure. Oh, the soft ones were BLLd, worked fine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by popper; 01-11-2017 at 03:53 PM.
    Whatever!

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    Or a Raptor riding a great white while toting an RPG. LOL!
    Attachment 144942
    Welcome back, Tim. Did you build that one?

  7. #507
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    I started with pretty close to lyman#2 then added a estimated .5% cu, but if that's 1.5% by mass, then does that mean I only have 3.5% tin now? I'm interested to know, but I made a batch of about 130lbs so i'll be good for a while.by the way, it hardens to around 20bhn (probably a bit more,maybe 22% I don't have a tester) doesn't shatter, and still expands in a dirt backstop at 1600fps @50yrds. I am stocking up on pure, lino, and will probably get 2-4 more bottles of zep. one question though, I have 1:20 w/ 1.9%sb in it, how would that heat treat if I add .3%cu to it? was thinking it would be great for mag. revolver rounds.
    Norinco SKS
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  8. #508
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    If you cut the #2 50% with pure you get COWW Sb. Then add the Cu. I don't use Sn so don't know how it would turn out, the 1:20 is Sn high. Anything with 2% Sb will H.T. I tried some really soft in the 40SW and got leading & keyholes. I used the RCBS TC die to insure they passed the plunk test, I think I squished the alloy, causing keyholes. I've cast some more and will check the brass before seating so I don't have any problem. I've used ~1% Sb w/Cu in 30/30 (GCd) and 300BO at mag pistol fps/psi with decent results.
    If you get excessive Cu in the alloy that is not locked into Sb, melt temp has to go up and fillout isn't great. I cast some 'excess Cu' 185gr GC for the 30/30 yesterday. Coating with BLL today (AC) to shoot next weekend. I know excess as the top of the pot was green.
    Whatever!

  9. #509
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    if you are talking about the lee 312-185, that's one of the boolits I am shooting. the alloy I am asking about would be used for mag. revolvers, so it wont see over 1500fps. maybe with the copper it would be alright without HT'ing it, or if not, I could try water dropping. I've found that the zep is definitely easier to use than y welding method, but at 12.99 a bottle It is more expensive. I haven't figured out yet, how much zep would it take to get .5% in a batch of 100lbs? are any of you good at math and have a bottle handy to check how much copper is really in it? it says how much copper sulfide, and how much copper metal by% but does any of the copper sulfide convert back to metal? this is another reason I like the welding method. weigh the wire, weld it in, and you know exactly how much is in there! thanks a lot, Travis
    Norinco SKS
    mosin nagant est 1937
    S&W 15-2 combat masterpiece
    Remington 597 22lr w/30 rnd clip
    12ga NEF single shot
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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR Owl Creek View Post
    Are you sure you have your decimal point in the right place? Most people using Cu enhanced alloys have a really hard time casting with those alloys once the Cu content goes much higher than .5%, unless the run their alloy and mould temperatures very high. The Cu acts as a "grain refiner", much like As, but too much Cu in the alloy can make casting almost impossible, because of the rapid cooling of the Cu (melting point 1984 degress F) causes the Cu that's in the alloy to freeze out of solution. This causes "sheeting" around the nozzle of bottom pout pots, and can even cause "sheeting" within the mould when pouring with a ladle.

    As far as the Sn being equal to the Sb in the alloy, is that they form the intermetallic compound SbSn. The intermetallic compound SbSn will mix in solution with the Pb, as long as the content doesn't exceed about 3.5% to 5%. Any Sn exceeding the amount of Sb will not form into SbSn, and simply mix into the Pb. That portion of PbSn will not harden and remain soft. Also, any amount of Sb not formed into the compound SbSn will solidify before the Pb does, and create spots of that element within the bullet. Those spots of Sb within a cast bullet will create imbalances as the Sb is not as dense as Pb. That's why too much Sn above the Sb can be detrimental to achieving high velocity with a cast bullet.

    Finally, as far as being able to push a cast bullet at high velocity, that's one thing, but actually being able to hit something with it is another. IMO

    Dave
    so what I'm getting is that, if I want to use this
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-bullet-castin

    90.14 % Sn
    4.22 % Sb
    3.62 % Cu
    1.15 % Pb

    to add to pure lead, then I need to add a lot more Sb (antimony) ???

  11. #511
    Boolit Master
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    ok, finally finished the whole thread (whew )
    the last 6 - 8 pages explain why there were so much redacted info in the first 20

    now, off to find some antimony........

  12. #512
    Boolit Master
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    Mixed Alloy

    Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Silver % Lead % Weight

    2.68% 2.79% 0.02% 0.45% 0.03% 94.0% 34.1

    Est. Hardness 11.9


    2 ounces copper
    Tinned with
    .25 lb 96 Sn / 4 Ag
    added to
    12.5 pounds of 90.7 Pb /7.2 Sb
    .75 lb of 90.1 Sn / 4.2Sb / 3.6 Cu / 1.1 Pb
    .5 lb bird shot
    Add to
    20 lbs pure lead

    third and fourth ingredients from Orisolo in swap and sell

    tell me where I'm off in my math (or anything else?)

    thanks

    P.S. should make 450 530 gr 45/70 boolits
    Last edited by aephilli822; 06-16-2017 at 09:11 AM.

  13. #513
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    That's why too much Sn above the Sb can be detrimental to achieving high velocity with a cast bullet.

    Finally, as far as being able to push a cast bullet at high velocity, that's one thing, but actually being able to hit something with it is another. IMO

    Dave" not sure what you mean by "Too much tin above the antimony" do you mean higher in amount?
    Norinco SKS
    mosin nagant est 1937
    S&W 15-2 combat masterpiece
    Remington 597 22lr w/30 rnd clip
    12ga NEF single shot
    heritage 22lr/22mag

  14. #514
    Boolit Master
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    That's what I'm getting from it.
    I'm not after "high velocity" (yet) just want to make some "tough" 458 boolits.
    Later on may want some 30-06 and 7x61 S&H projectiles.

  15. #515
    Boolit Master
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    and gonna use gas checks and Ben's Liquid Lube, so I should be good for 6000 FPS, right?



  16. #516
    Boolit Man rusty marlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'll Make Mine View Post
    Hmm. Homemade bronze bullets, with homemade bronze? That's what you're making when you alloy copper and tin, after all...
    No, bronze is high Cu to low Sn alloy, this is going the other way.
    Excuse me sir, do have any scrap lead you want disposed of?
    How much are you looking for?

    How much do you have? I can haul it away no charge and dispose of it one ounce at time.

  17. #517
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Recovered part of a 308W boolit that hit steel @ 1700 fps or so (2400 at muzzle). Very interesting. This is isocore & 0.5% Cu, no tin. Looks like part the nose sheared off & some of the HF red PC is still on. Interesting part is the surface looks like my stick welds. Same wavy texture. Very different from the 40SW I recovered that just had half the TC nose 1/4" down from the rest of the nose. I assume some kind of shock heating/melting/cutting. No fracture/galling/scraping on any surface. Edges of this chunk were curled up but not the typical 'frayed' edges I've seen from other recovered boolit pics. Sorry none of my cameras will do close up.
    Whatever!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check