High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

[berksglh]

Was the copper actually melted into the lead with a TIG torch, I am little bit lost here on how the copper was melted into the lead block.

Yes. TIG (tungsten inert Gas, or as the old timers called it heliArc, cause the thicker metals used helium in the gas for less cooling?)

TIG is sort of an electric version of brazing. So there is a filler rod that is melted into the weld joint. I just used solid coper wire and welded it into the alloy. I had about 10 cupcake pan ingots I used.

I got greedy and tried welding a #6 stranded wire into some lead. It didn't dilute enough, and the lead was liquefied and i ended up with a chunk of garbage on top. If the lead is molten, the copper floats, and you end up adding copper to copper.

A solid # 12 or 10 seemed to work best, and only a few inches at a time into solid alloy in a fresh spot, then let it cool and weld more into a new spot.

After you run out of fresh alloy surface, remelt all the ingots together and flux and stir good then pour fresh ingots and repeat till you get it all added.

I made a bunch of 4.0% Cu enriched ingots to spike my other alloy with.

I also tried placing a bunch of coiled wire in a stainless jar of alloy and cover the surface with powdered charcoal and put it in the wood burner surounded by hot coals till the jar was dull orange from heat, then stirred good and tossed in some wax.

That appeared to work, but it cooled a bit as i poured it off and ended up with a solid mass floating on top. I believe its antimony that separated out. Its brittle but appears to be a crystalline metal and must need a lot of heat to melt. (Web searh said almost 1200°F). So that may not be the best way to do it if it causes the antimony to separate out. Its fairly difficult to get it to dissolve back in without crushing it up and submerging it.

The TIG method seemed to work good if you only melt a bead of copper into a fresh area of alloy that is still solid.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Blending with babbitt that has known quantities might be an easier way to get repeatable results bstone5.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/...gh_babbitt.htm

Funny that hasn't been a problem for the many of us who can follow directions.

I will confess your way is cheaper.

[DR Owl Creek]

Shot the 308 AR this morning. Old boolits I cast ~ a yr ago, ~ 1% Cu, 3.5% Sb, 0% Sn 0.25% As. Compared with only ~0.3% Cu. 170 gr pushed ~2600 fps, ESPC'd. 1% wins. Going for 2% next. 6# 4% Sb, 0.14# Sn, 4800 gr CuSO4, 1.5# shot.
Oh, 39 gr. of Lvr worked pretty well too.

Are you sure you have your decimal point in the right place? Most people using Cu enhanced alloys have a really hard time casting with those alloys once the Cu content goes much higher than .5%, unless the run their alloy and mould temperatures very high. The Cu acts as a "grain refiner", much like As, but too much Cu in the alloy can make casting almost impossible, because of the rapid cooling of the Cu (melting point 1984 degress F) causes the Cu that's in the alloy to freeze out of solution. This causes "sheeting" around the nozzle of bottom pout pots, and can even cause "sheeting" within the mould when pouring with a ladle.

As far as the Sn being equal to the Sb in the alloy, is that they form the intermetallic compound SbSn. The intermetallic compound SbSn will mix in solution with the Pb, as long as the content doesn't exceed about 3.5% to 5%. Any Sn exceeding the amount of Sb will not form into SbSn, and simply mix into the Pb. That portion of PbSn will not harden and remain soft. Also, any amount of Sb not formed into the compound SbSn will solidify before the Pb does, and create spots of that element within the bullet. Those spots of Sb within a cast bullet will create imbalances as the Sb is not as dense as Pb. That's why too much Sn above the Sb can be detrimental to achieving high velocity with a cast bullet.

Finally, as far as being able to push a cast bullet at high velocity, that's one thing, but actually being able to hit something with it is another. IMO

Dave

[bstone5]

I do a lot of TIG welding in the shop. Will try the copper on a bar of lead just to see if I can make the two blend together.
I have a Dynasty 300 welding machine I weld a lot of aluminum at high frequency.

Dis you use a dc current to weld the copper into the lead, like welding mild steel.

[popper]

Tried to smash that drip slug of 2% in my HF mini-vise - thought I was going to bend the handle. I've not had problems casting with the 1% Cu. This was on a good day, 1%. HF red coated 31-165C @ 170gr.
Attachment 144443

[berksglh]

I do a lot of TIG welding in the shop. Will try the copper on a bar of lead just to see if I can make the two blend together.
I have a Dynasty 300 welding machine I weld a lot of aluminum at high frequency.

Dis you use a dc current to weld the copper into the lead, like welding mild steel.

Had a Dynasty 300 years back. I used a miller XMT 304. So yes, just DCEN with argon.

The hi freq is really only used to establish the arc and in AC to maintain it when the voltage crosses 0 and current changes direction. AC is what makes TIG possible on aluminum. When the current goes Electrode Positive (the lower proportion of your AC balance setting) the curent blasts the oxides off. Or cleans the aluminum creating the slight etching to the sides of the weld.

Regardless, i think pulsing may work better to massage the puddles together and lesson the heat input.

But I'm curious if AC would give you any benefit in cleaning the alloy and acting like a fluxing mechanism?

I miss my Dynasty, but its sale did finance a few guns....

[DR Owl Creek]

Tried to smash that drip slug of 2% in my HF mini-vise - thought I was going to bend the handle. I've not had problems casting with the 1% Cu. This was on a good day, 1%. HF red coated 31-165C @ 170gr.
Attachment 144443

That's a nice, tight cluster.

What was your velocity?

Is that 7th bullet hole that's about 1 3/4" down, and the 8th bullet hole that's about 2 3/4" low and right part of a different group?

Dave

[DR Owl Creek]

...
No not different group, just my normal lousy shooting. ...

Maybe your shooting ability isn't the problem.

If you do have 2% Cu in your alloy, I would expect you'd have to use a lot higher temperature than 715 degrees in order to get useable bullets. One-half culls shouldn't be unusual at that temperature.

Dave

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I run mine up around 750ish.

[popper]

Maybe the temp needs to go up a bit but I was casting fast before I melted. As this is a test, I culled anything that wasn't absolutely perfect. I'll work on temp and technique if these shoot good. I'll ESPC 30 or so this afternoon. Got the bathroom faucet to actually turn on so she's going to be happy. Never seen such a weird cartridge setup before, delta. Better go anneal some GCs.
It's my shooting. IIRC that is from when I was testing loads, thought I got leading so shot some of my 'standard' to clean the bore - wasn't really concentrating. Yes that target had a lot of 'other' holes in it.
Attachment 144537

[BABore]

Do you have an analysis that shows that you have a full 2% copper in your alloy? Or are you just assuming that you had a perfect chemical trade of copper for tin?

[Jailer]

Ok I didn't read the entire thread but are you saying you are casting 2% CU alloy at 715 without any trouble from a Lee pot?

If that's what you think you are doing it would serve you well to get your alloy analyzed.

[BABore]

Just traded for the tin, CuSO4 stays white when all is converted. Maybe off a 10th % or so. Just finished ESPC on them. Now to size and load next week. Scap yard here won't sell lead nor do any analysis. They scan your DL if scrapping rabbit or brass.

That's what I figured when you stated you were casting a 2% Cu alloy at just over 700 F. Complete BS and like your signature line "Whatever!" is about what you have for a Cu content. You just don't know, and never will unless you get an accurate analysis. In fact you will need to do a statistical relevant number of batches, using the exact same procedures, and have all of them analyzed. The variation in Cu percentage will have to be extremely small due to the minute amounts needed to affect an alloy. Otherwise, it's just maybe adding whatever. The only reproducible method, outside of a lab, is to use a high copper babbit along with known or certified Pb, Sn, Sb, and As or alloys. This has been done and is being done.

If you wish to continue to discuss the merits and high copper content of the alloys produced using your copper sulfate method, then let's see the numbers. I can show you mine with a couple receipts and a little math.

[Hamish]

I'll take a stab at it,,,,,

To be clear, unless you have your alloy assayed after cooking in your root killer, declaring a percentage of copper to be present in your smelt, is nothing more than WAG, a supposition, an unsubstantiated deduction, WISHFUL THINKING.

IF your stated temperature is correct, then the fact that every person who has poured alloy of known copper percentages, obtained from certified metals, are stating that higher temps than what you state are necessary to get alloy at the percentages you claim to flow, SHOULD be getting your attention that something is not jibing.

No one doubts or is trying to refute that transmigration is taking place, but you CANNOT believably state the percentage obtained, and the persistence in doing so does a diservice to those trying to learn.

This has been explained, over and over and over and over,,,,,,,,,.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Yoose guys must have a patent on using Babbitt.

Just apparently on repeatability.

Glad you like the results you are seeing with what you are doing.

[BABore]

Except ignorance is bliss!

[DR Owl Creek]

Attachment 144443

I noticed there was a "tell tail" line that had been drawn around the right side of this .75 MOA cluster. The line looks like it would be big enough to include at least one more bullet hole below this cluster. The line didn't show up very well on the expanded view of your target, which was cut off at the bottom, but that expanded view did show some other bullet holes that this one didn't.

Were there any other bullet holes in that "group" that you didn't show us yet?


Dave

[badgeredd]

Yoose guys must have a patent on using Babbitt.

We never said anything remotely resembling your comment. What we have said REPEATEDLY is... give us some proof that your method is verifiable as consistent. That has not happened.

You say on one hand that you have 1% or more copper in you alloy but then say that copper has a solubility of 0.3% in lead. WHICH IS IT?

By the way where is YOUR certified data? You are asking us for the same as proof of our techique's success.

Does circular reasoning have any meaning to you?

Fishing probably will be a better activity for you at this point.

[Jailer]

Fishing probably will be a better activity for you at this point.

Well at least he's already got some sinkers cast up for it.