High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=btroj;2702121]I am assuming that this alloy isn't likely to expand much on impact? I don't care about expansion but like the fact I understand it isn't brittle and therefore isn't likely to go to pieces on impact.

QUOTE]

The alloy shows "some" expansion but it is not gonna give you a textbook "mushroom" ever. Put some meplat on it and giver the juice....then they work just great with Michigan whitetails. They do not show any "brittle" tendencies whatsoever....none....notta. I have caught a few in water ( I get to tear down the occassional above ground pool and shoot it first) and the boolit normally starts to do a rivet action on the nose and sometimes depending on length/diameter they will swell up mid boolit as if they are being "squished" from both ends. From 7mm@2500 to 35@ 2400 and 2700 they work just great and accuracy has to be seen to be believed.



Randy

I have almost 500 rds loaded for that Whelen...sometimes I have to simply go out and test my welding ability on my plates ya know. Glad you liked my Whelen......I still thank Lastmanout for selling it to me everytime I take her for a walk out back to beat on steel.

[madsenshooter]

I just reread this whole thing today, and I can't wait to give some NOE 316365 spitzers I cast of Cu enriched stuff a try. You guys are mostly looking for an alloy to hunt with, but I'm looking to shoot cast out of my Krag at Camp Perry this year, and I don't want to give up much to fellows shooting match bullets at higher velocity than I can get out of my Krag. I got the sizing done right after casting, two sizings, from .317 to .314, .314 to .311. After that oven heat treating and quenching to relieve the stresses I put on them. Hoping to get 2200-2300fps out of the 203gr spitzer with very slow burning powders so as to keep within the Krag's design limitations. After I'm done with these experiments, I have a 230gr flatnose with a wide meplat, Accurate's 31-230E, to cast as a hunting bullet. I must've got the alloy reasonably balanced, I'm not getting any growth after sizing and heat treating, but it's only been a couple days. The air cooled bullets I have cast of the alloy are doing real good in hammer testing too. The majority of the bullets I cast are within 1gr in weight. I found some info on casting temps recommended for various babbitts, which is what we're making when you get down to it, and the temps range from 625-890. I have a banded Eagan design bullet mold that I use to get the temp right, when that mold will give me full fill out, I have the alloy at the right temp. With this batch, it's about 825 with the mold temp approaching 400.

[badgeredd]

I just reread this whole thing today, and I can't wait to give some NOE 316365 spitzers I cast of Cu enriched stuff a try. You guys are mostly looking for an alloy to hunt with, but I'm looking to shoot cast out of my Krag at Camp Perry this year, and I don't want to give up much to fellows shooting match bullets at higher velocity than I can get out of my Krag. I got the sizing done right after casting, two sizings, from .317 to .314, .314 to .311. After that oven heat treating and quenching to relieve the stresses I put on them. Hoping to get 2200-2300fps out of the 203gr spitzer with very slow burning powders so as to keep within the Krag's design limitations. After I'm done with these experiments, I have a 230gr flatnose with a wide meplat, Accurate's 31-230E, to cast as a hunting bullet. I must've got the alloy reasonably balanced, I'm not getting any growth after sizing and heat treating, but it's only been a couple days. The air cooled bullets I have cast of the alloy are doing real good in hammer testing too. The majority of the bullets I cast are within 1gr in weight. I found some info on casting temps recommended for various babbitts, which is what we're making when you get down to it, and the temps range from 625-890. I have a banded Eagan design bullet mold that I use to get the temp right, when that mold will give me full fill out, I have the alloy at the right temp. With this batch, it's about 825 with the mold temp approaching 400.

I'm sure you can get the velocity without alloy failure in a Krag action. Of course, as you know I am sure, all of the fit issues and reloading procedures are still important. I say this for those that will jump on the idea without taking the time to get the bullet right in the first place. What got my attention was the fact that even with my RR babbit, I can run the pressures 10,000 psi higher without alloy failure. I know the alloy won't take 60,000 psi at this time with the blends I've tried, but the babbit definitely allows a considerably higher operating pressure than the typical wheel weigh or WW/pure alloy.

We've been working on and off with finding the upper "limit" of pressure with a 8mm Mag and a 358 Norma Mag. We did encounter failure of the alloy in the 60,000+ psi range in the 8 so either the threshhold is in between 50 and 60, 000 or we need a more exacting way to concoct the alloys. Perhaps our alloy mix %s were flawed too...time and testing will tell. If I can get the certified alloys ($-?) to blend a more precise alloy, I'll start getting some answers about the high end pressures.

Edd

[madsenshooter]

Back a page there was disagreement about Superhard, and Supertough. Superhard is an alloy Rotometals sells that's 30/70 Sb/Pb, a way to increase the Sb content of your alloy. Supertough, also from Rotometals, is a high Sn & Cu babbitt. Course, y'all probably figured this out already.

[gewing]

If it ain't broke...don't fix it. This is a specialized alloy for HIGH pressure loads primarily. If you are happy with what you're getting, why change?

Edd

Bearcove, I re-read this post and I don't like the way the answer seems a bit curt. I apologize if you find it the same.

Okay gentlemen, I have read 12 pages and am rather out of my depth. I am just starting to cast, and my dad hasn't done any for a couple decades. I see that these Cu bearing alloys will be completely unnecessary for the .45 handguns I was originally planning on. However, we have mostly been rifle shooters. If these alloys can be used for loads in .223, .308. .375 h&h...
I have lost track, I understand you are not using gas checks, what about lube?

Is it possible to buy one of these alloys mixed, or simplify the recipe down to two or three components that are easily available? I liked the idea someone else posted of long range shooting with them. I am sure a machine shop I know of could make a mold block for a very high/efficient form factor bullet. Cast, with no lighter material jacket to lower the sectional density...

[badgeredd]

kkkkkkk

[AlaskanGuy]

I have been watching this thread for quite a while... I dont have any of the required stuff to make my own, but have been thinking about getting some of the super tuff from roto for my 375 h&h brown bear loads... Need a bullet that will have limited expansion, and max penetration without fragmentation.. It also needs to be pushed real hard.... Is could be a huge help rather then heat treating ww alloy...

AG

[rockrat]

jailer----found the same, with my spout freezing up. Dropped the Cu to about .18% and it helped quite a bit. I also cast at about 710 degrees for my alloy.

My alloy might be out of balance, as it is more like 93.7%pb/3.5%Sb/2.5%Sn/.2%Cu/.1As and a bit of silver(from the solder 2% Ag, two 1 lb bars added to 140lbs alloy)

[BABore]

[QUOTE=357maximum;2706020]

I am assuming that this alloy isn't likely to expand much on impact? I don't care about expansion but like the fact I understand it isn't brittle and therefore isn't likely to go to pieces on impact.

QUOTE]

The alloy shows "some" expansion but it is not gonna give you a textbook "mushroom" ever. Put some meplat on it and giver the juice....then they work just great with Michigan whitetails. They do not show any "brittle" tendencies whatsoever....none....notta. I have caught a few in water ( I get to tear down the occassional above ground pool and shoot it first) and the boolit normally starts to do a rivet action on the nose and sometimes depending on length/diameter they will swell up mid boolit as if they are being "squished" from both ends. From 7mm@2500 to 35@ 2400 and 2700 they work just great and accuracy has to be seen to be believed.



Randy

I have almost 500 rds loaded for that Whelen...sometimes I have to simply go out and test my welding ability on my plates ya know. Glad you liked my Whelen......I still thank Lastmanout for selling it to me everytime I take her for a walk out back to beat on steel.

Mike,

Have you tried to torch anneal the nose for better expansion? Works on 50/50 and WW's. Don't see why it wouldn't here as well.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=BABore;2716191]

Mike,

Have you tried to torch anneal the nose for better expansion? Works on 50/50 and WW's. Don't see why it wouldn't here as well.

Bruce

Yes I have made them that way...no I have not ran them into any fleshy objects yet, but the hammer test shows some evidence of it improving expansion.......a little.

I made 100 for the max using your 3rd version 360-180 FP, and I made 50 that way using your 360-225 for the Whelen. I have ran them into wet soil/hard snow/water jugs, they show some extra "riveting" but still not a textbook "mushroom" and you know that both of them guns are ran near the top end. At the speeds I normally run my hunting guns I simply feel that it is unnecessary to take that step at the speeds I choose to run flatnosed boolits, it may help at the distant critters though....time will tell....I hope.

[357maximum]

I have been watching this thread for quite a while... I dont have any of the required stuff to make my own, but have been thinking about getting some of the super tuff from roto for my 375 h&h brown bear loads... Need a bullet that will have limited expansion, and max penetration without fragmentation.. It also needs to be pushed real hard.... Is could be a huge help rather then heat treating ww alloy...

AG

I would say you have one very solid train of thought going there, and after playing with these alloys I would also say it will work just as you are thinking. These alloys do not like to lose pieces of themselves...it even makes cast HP's behave a bit better in the "retained weight" department at higher than normal cast velocities.

[DR Owl Creek]

Question for Badgeredd, 357 Maximum, Jailer, BABore, et al:

I would like to work up a high velocity target load for use in my Springfield Armory M1A. I have the same rifle BruceB used in his thread "7.62 NATO in Springfield M1A" in the CB Loads/Military Rifles form, except I have a 4-14x scope on mine. I would primarily use this load for informal target shooting at up to 200 yards, but might occasionally use it out to 600 yards as well. The rifle is very accurate with handloads using jacketed bullets, and I would like to duplicate this performance as close as possible using cast lead loads

I understand the importance of static and dynamic fit, the use of slower burn rate powders for a gentler start, the use of the proper types of lubes, precision handloading techniques, the use of fillers. etc. My question has to do with the proper alloy to achieve what I want.

I plan on using Missouri Bullet Company's "Magic Alloy" (same as RotoMetal's "Harball" - 92% Pb, 6% Sb, 2% Sn), RotoMetal's "Super tough" Babbitt (84% Sn, 8% Sb, 8% Cu), and 99.9+% pure lead I already have. I didn't use Bumpo's calculator. I figured out the proportions the old-fashioned way, using the weight in grains for the alloy, times the percentage of each element in the alloy, divided by the total weight in grains, and came up with the following, using 18 lbs Magic Alloy, 1 lb Super Tough, and 20 lbs pure lead:

Pb 93.7%
Sn 3.1%
Sb 3.0%
Cu .2%

This should give me a reasonably balanced alloy, with the Sb and Cu content slightly over the Sn content.

Assuming heat treating and water quenching, approximately what would the BHN be, and would this be appropriate for what I want to try, considering that the load might be pushing 50,000 psi?

Should I go with a higher Sn, Sb, and Cu percentage?

Should I go with a lower Sn, Sb, and Cu percentage?

Thanks,

Dave


Psalm 18: 28-40

[badgeredd]

By using certified alloys to mix up your bullet metal, I think you will add some very helpful information to our ongoing experiments. I personally have not used all certified alloys to mix up a bullet alloy, mainly due to finances.

Edd

[DR Owl Creek]

Edd,

I appreciate your input about upping the balance to 3 1/4 % to 3 1/2 %. That's the kind of info I was hoping for. I refigured the alloy amounts based on that.

Using 20 lbs Magic Alloy, 1 lb Super Tough, and 18 lbs pure lead, I came up with the following:

Pb 93.3%
Sb 3.3%
Sn 3.2%
Cu .2%

Adding about 1 oz more Sn to this mix would bring the balance of Sn just under the combined Sb plus Cu amounts.

Using 22 lbs Magic Alloy, 1 lb Super Tough, and 18 lbs pure lead, I came up with the following:

Pb 93.3%
Sb 3.4%
Sn 3.1%
Cu <.2%

Adding about 2 oz more Sn to this mix would bring the balance of Sn just under the Combined Sb plus Cu amounts.

Hopefully, one of these combinations will work.

Dave

Psalm 35: 1-4

[rockrat]

DR owl creek. You have a bit more tin than I do, but I did send some boolits of a certain design to another here, so he could try them before ordering a mould. They were water quenched from the mould. He reported the BHN to be between 24-25 after about a week.

this is my everyday alloy. I have another for faster stuff, but seldom use it. Its more like #2 alloy with copper added.

[DR Owl Creek]

As far as the costs, Missouri Bullet Co's Magic Alloy is a little cheaper than RotoMetal's Hardball. The listed price for Magic alloy is $143.88 plus shipping for 66 lbs in a USPS MFR box. That should work out to about $2.40 per lb delivered. RotoMetal's Super Tough is currently $18.99 per lb plus shipping. I have a fairly good supply of pure lead I bought last summer at an average price of $1.25 per lb.

Using those amounts, I came up with an approximate cost of about $2.34 per lb to make the Cu enriched alloy. For a 180 gr 308/7.62 cast bullet, you would get approximately 38 per lb of alloy, so the cost without gas check would be about 6 cents each. For a 70 gr 223/5.56 cast bullet, you would get 100 per lb of alloy, so the cost without gas check would be about 2.3 cents each.

It also seems like using the Cu enriched alloy using certified alloys would be very easy, and repeatable.

Dave

Psalm 23: 1-6

[DR Owl Creek]

Those cost figures I listed previously may seem high to someone used to paying 15 cents per lb for scrap range lead or wheel weights, but if you're used to buying commercial jacketed bullets, those price seem really reasonable.

Mid-South Shooters Supply's current list price for Berger 168 gr Match VLDs is $43.20 per 100, for Sierra 168 gr Match King HPBTs is $30.78 per 100, for Nosler 168 gr Custom Competition HPBTs is $29.21 per 100, and for Hornady 168 gr A-Max is $26.54 per 100.

I think that should put the cost of using the certified alloys in better perspective.

Dave

[62chevy]

If you buy hard cast bullets from most sellers then you are paying over $4.50 a pound.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

He wasn't talking about buying bullets from them, just buying a known alloy from them. I am really impressed with the price, hope they don't drive the price up if a lot of people start buying it, definitely cheaper than rotometals, that's for sure.

Randy

[badgeredd]

Edd,

I appreciate your input about upping the balance to 3 1/4 % to 3 1/2 %. That's the kind of info I was hoping for. I refigured the alloy amounts based on that.

Using 20 lbs Magic Alloy, 1 lb Super Tough, and 18 lbs pure lead, I came up with the following:

Pb 93.3%
Sb 3.3%
Sn 3.2%
Cu .2%

Adding about 1 oz more Sn to this mix would bring the balance of Sn just under the combined Sb plus Cu amounts.

Using 22 lbs Magic Alloy, 1 lb Super Tough, and 18 lbs pure lead, I came up with the following:

Pb 93.3%
Sb 3.4%
Sn 3.1%
Cu >.2%

Adding about 2 oz more Sn to this mix would bring the balance of Sn just under the Combined Sb plus Cu amounts.

Hopefully, one of these combinations will work.

Dave

Psalm 35: 1-4

Dr Owl Creek,

I'd start with the alloy you mentioned initially. If you water drop the castings, they'll be in the high 20s bhn. More antimony isn't necessary in most of my rifles, but I do have a couple that like harder bullets. Since you are talking target loads, higher antimonial content won't hurt you but may not help you either.

Edd