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Thread: High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

  1. #461
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    OK, 90F this morning. 2% AC & H.T. 5 rnds each 308W sized 3085 (normally 3105 for 1%) 170 gr. ESPC Smoke's gloss black. Didn't chrony and almost no neck tension but FCD so I single loaded. 41gr. H4895, no filler but loaded 0.020 shorter than normal. Left, AC, right H/T. Top hole H/T looks like 2 holes on the actual target, don't know where the first shot went, was (I thought, first rnds fired) aiming at left target. Fps should be in the 2600+ range. Anyway, theory proven and reasonable results. Increased the BO load 1/2 gr and shots went to pot so maybe I'll try this alloy in it. PC appears to hold up better than HiTek in that load. It's a 144gr PB. Leaded badly.
    Attachment 145935Attachment 145936
    Oh, 100yds.
    Last edited by popper; 08-05-2015 at 12:42 PM.
    Whatever!

  2. #462
    Boolit Buddy berksglh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    I ESPC so haven't taken the temp over 415<snip> if I H.T. @ 460 I might have the equal of heavy Cu solids?
    I believe you may be correct. What the best mix of alloys is to mimic that, were not sure, and what temps HT to what BHN when alloy is changed this much, i believe is not known yet.

    Heres some of my 0.2%Cu that were PC'd then HT at about 463°F on the left that were compared against some jacketed rnds, and i believe non HT on the right.

    I'm anxious to load and see how hard I can push them.

  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by berksglh View Post

    ...

    If you PC and then heat treat but get them too hot, the outer metallic skin of the bullet peals off if bumped hot or cracks when water dropping and some if the PC flakes off with silver skin on the underside.
    ...
    It's hard to diagnose what's going on without actually seeing it, but what you're seeing here could be the result of the CU alloy freezing out of solution within the mould, causing "sheeting" inside the mould itself. While running your alloy and mould hotter could help prevent this "sheeting" of the CU, the other solution would be to dilute your CU alloy with pure lead, possibly 2:1, or maybe even 1:1.

    If your painted finish pulls the outer layer of the bullet metal off the bullet, it probably won't do well being blasted down the barrel, or flying to your target either. Think about how a lot of the thin skinned jacketed bullets, like the Speer TNT or the Barnes Varmint Grenades, disintegrate in flight when being pushed too fast from tight twist barrels.

    Dave
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  4. #464
    Boolit Buddy berksglh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR Owl Creek View Post
    If your painted finish pulls the outer layer of the bullet metal off the bullet, it probably won't do well being blasted down the barrel, or flying to your target either.
    I wasn't clear enough. I dry tumble powdercoat, then bake the PC on in the heat treating process for 1 hour @ 463°F, then water quench.

    If quenched higher, say 470, the outer most skin of metal seems melted and if bumped while hot, the pc chips off with it.

    After quenching, the pc is attached fine and passes squash test.

    Since that post I've done the same with COWW and same happens, so I assume its tin starting to melt?

    Its only an issue if heat treating Powder coated too hot.

    @ 463 It seems manageable, and they harden great.
    Last edited by berksglh; 08-07-2015 at 07:20 AM.

  5. #465
    Boolit Buddy berksglh's Avatar
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    PID autotuned convection oven. Absolutely love it! Set temp and time, come back before done to water dump.

    I placed binder clips on some test bullets of my 0.2%Cu's, after it was at 460 for 30 minutes or so, i bumped it 5° every 5 minutes or so. The clips started pinching through as it hit 478, so i stopped it there and waited, then after a while went up to 480 and the rest all popped through a minute or two after getting there.

    I assume that alloy slumps just above that temp a ways?

    oven

    Was hoping to hit the local range after work today, but its raining pretty good.

  6. #466
    Boolit Buddy berksglh's Avatar
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    My oven doesn't overshoot. Set to 463, worst I've ever seen it after opening the door, is 467 for a minute or so but that's an introduction of a huge load its not tuned for.

    I don't think I've done the pinch test yet to find COWW pinch off temp, but from what I've read, I'd expect it to be in the 445-455 area.

    The coper content seems to raise this temp and allow for higher heat treat temp while staying below slump or pinch off temp.

  7. #467
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Just a small point I haven't seen mentioned, in 'balancing' alloys one can't go my weight. For example, 2% Sn and 2% Sb does not give an equal amount of each. Similarly, 0.3% Cu is not as small as it sounds. For example, 2% Sn, 2% Sb and 0.3% Cu by weight is actually 3.37% Sn, 3.28% Sb and 0.95% Cu by mol (number of atoms). The tin and antimony is pretty close but the copper is three times higher than what we think. That means that 1% copper by weight is actually 3.11% by mol.
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  8. #468
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Yes, I do atomic weight calculations, CuSO4 method is atomic substitutional (~5:1) to zinc or tin. Babbitt users go by purported percentage but you point is good for the wire adders & other methods. A question would be if 'certified' is % by weight or atomic (mol).
    Edit:My interest in the Cu enhanced boolit alloy is peaked by real performance gains, less messy and smelly than sulfur 'hardened'.
    1) I don't use any tin as I have not found any good info on tin/copper 'alloys'. It seems to be a solution more than a real atomic alloy. Anyone with real data on this, I'd like a link please. We do know how much Cu CAN be in Pb but we don't know how much IS in Pb/Sn/Sb.
    2) From my rather simple experiments it needs an appreciable amount of As to get benefits from HT. Low (.3 %) gets the 'toughness' up but not a lot of 'hardening'.
    3) No industry is interested in spending the $ to find a boolit alloy for us, so we just glean info from those other industries. It's trial and error method but that's all we get. I haven't 'invented' anything, just want to know what works and what doesn't for different applications. IIRC we've gotten one result for deer hunting that wasn't good (7mm Thor) but is it completely valid?
    Last edited by popper; 08-10-2015 at 11:38 AM.
    Whatever!

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Just a small point I haven't seen mentioned, in 'balancing' alloys one can't go my weight. For example, 2% Sn and 2% Sb does not give an equal amount of each. Similarly, 0.3% Cu is not as small as it sounds. For example, 2% Sn, 2% Sb and 0.3% Cu by weight is actually 3.37% Sn, 3.28% Sb and 0.95% Cu by mol (number of atoms). The tin and antimony is pretty close but the copper is three times higher than what we think. That means that 1% copper by weight is actually 3.11% by mol.
    303guy,

    Very interesting. Would you mind walking us through the math in determining your Cu amounts?

    Thanks,

    Dave
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    Psalm 144: 1-8

  10. #470
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Do I really have to think?

    OK, here goes;

    Mole Definition: a chemical mass unit, defined to be 6.022 x 1023molecules, atoms, or some other unit.

    This means we are comparing the number of atoms of each element in our alloy.

    1 gram of copper = 0.0157366317313 moles
    1 gram of lead = 0.00482625482625 moles
    1 gram of tin = 0.00842389015247 moles
    1 gram of antimony = 0.00821287779238 moles
    1 gram of arsenic = 0.013347285696 moles

    So supposing you have 1 kg of lead to which you add 100g of tin and 100g of antimony and 25g of copper and 1 gram of arsenic,
    we get;
    1000x0.00482625482625 = 4.826 moles of lead
    100x0.00842389015247 = 0.842 moles of tin
    100x0.00821287779238 = 0.823 moles of antimony
    25x0.0157366317313 = 0.393 moles of copper
    1x0.013347285696 = 0.133 moles of arsenic
    Total = 6.8973 moles
    lead = 70.0 %
    tin = 12.2%
    antimony = 11.9%
    copper = 5.7%
    arsenic = 0.19%

    Doing the percentage by mass we get;
    Total weight = 1226 g
    lead = 1000 g = 81.6 %
    tin = 100 g = 8.2 %
    antimony = 100 g = 8.2 %
    copper = 25 g = 2 .0%
    arsenic = 1 g = 0.08%

    Note how the copper jumps from 2% by mass to 5.7% by mole.

    I've updated my alloy calculator from bumpo628 to show moles and mole percentages. It makes the copper percentage more meaningful.
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  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Do I really have to think?

    OK, here goes;

    Mole Definition: a chemical mass unit, defined to be 6.022 x 1023molecules, atoms, or some other unit.

    This means we are comparing the number of atoms of each element in our alloy.

    1 gram of copper = 0.0157366317313 moles
    1 gram of lead = 0.00482625482625 moles
    1 gram of tin = 0.00842389015247 moles
    1 gram of antimony = 0.00821287779238 moles
    1 gram of arsenic = 0.013347285696 moles

    So supposing you have 1 kg of lead to which you add 100g of tin and 100g of antimony and 25g of copper and 1 gram of arsenic,
    we get;
    1000x0.00482625482625 = 4.826 moles of lead
    100x0.00842389015247 = 0.842 moles of tin
    100x0.00821287779238 = 0.823 moles of antimony
    25x0.0157366317313 = 0.393 moles of copper
    1x0.013347285696 = 0.133 moles of arsenic
    Total = 6.8973 moles
    lead = 70.0 %
    tin = 12.2%
    antimony = 11.9%
    copper = 5.7%
    arsenic = 0.19%

    Doing the percentage by mass we get;
    Total weight = 1226 g
    lead = 1000 g = 81.6 %
    tin = 100 g = 8.2 %
    antimony = 100 g = 8.2 %
    copper = 25 g = 2 .0%
    arsenic = 1 g = 0.08%

    Note how the copper jumps from 2% by mass to 5.7% by mole.

    I've updated my alloy calculator from bumpo628 to show moles and mole percentages. It makes the copper percentage more meaningful.

    303guy,

    Thank you for going through all that work for us. It's very helpful having someone who understands what's going on joining in the discussion!

    If you don't mind, do you have any recommendations about the use of CU enriched alloys you could share with us, e.g. amounts, type of loads that have been successful, velocities achieved, penetration, expansion, etc.?

    Thanks,

    Dave
    Psalm 18: 28-49
    Psalm 144: 1-8

  12. #472
    Boolit Master
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    Can you post yoour updated calculator?

  13. #473
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWT View Post
    Can you post your updated calculator?
    I sure could but out of respect I would like to check with bumpo first. (PM sent).

    I added a column for the common additions which only works on a wide screen. That would be easy to remove is so desired.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-14-2015 at 01:24 AM.
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  14. #474
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    If you don't mind, do you have any recommendations about the use of CU enriched alloys you could share with us, e.g. amounts, type of loads that have been successful, velocities achieved, penetration, expansion, etc.?
    Dave, I'm afraid I have been very 'not active' for the last few years. The alloy I have come up with seems rather nice but I don't know exactly what's in it! I have a guess based on what records I have (right here on castboolits) and I do plan to try reproduce it, I like it that much. It's fairly tough and totally not brittle. It does expand if driven fast enough and is what I would like to use for hunting. It cast quite well too. But I haven't even range tested it!

    This alloy has a fair amount of tin (around 3.5% by mol), some antimony (around 0.75% by mol) and a fair amount of copper (around 2.5% by mol). I'll do a search and see if I can find it again.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-14-2015 at 01:36 AM.
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  15. #475
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    bumpo has given his permission to share the additions I have made to his Alloy Calculator. Send me a PM with you email address if you would a copy. It is in Open Office and while I have tried to save it in Excel XLS format, it wouldn't do it for some reason. Odd because it gives me the option.
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  16. #476
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Well, my mystery alloy which I think may be around 3.5% Sn, 0.5% Sb and 0.7% Cu by weight seems to be not too bad. I cast a few boolits in my Lee .311/180 mold and as usual came out real nice, so it casts well. I did not water drop these and took a 'measurement' soon after casting then again today (and yesterday) and they have hardened up to water dropped levels in three days. Unfortunately my measurement has no definable correlation to BHN but the indent is less than a quarter what it was initially. There have been no dimensional changes. The pot is now nearly empty so I'll be making up a new alloy soon with properly recorded makeup and see how it compares. I will pay particular attention to the amount of copper going in.

    What is curious to me is that tin is not supposed to be a great alloying component yet if I have the alloy right, it seems to be working just fine.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-21-2015 at 01:34 AM.
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  17. #477
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    303guy,

    Thanks for posting again.

    Dave
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  18. #478
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Interesting, popper.

    I do plan on paper patching yes but not exclusively. Our spring is just around the corner which means less rain. We have a Mediterranean climate here which means it rains in winter - a lot! That's been my excuse.

    I'm thinking there must be some As in my alloy since I used lead pipe. I melted down some of the lead pipe into ingots for my new batch and they seem quite hard and have a high ring to them. These are the pipes used on the outside of buildings that go up through the eves and down into the drain system. These were clean inside so I got the high ones. Any idea what might be in it? It may be significant in my alloy and might explain the working of the tin.

    My new alloy;


    The temperature is theoretical and may or may not be near actual.

    Well, the hardness as cast is at least equal if not harder than my previous alloy! The pouring spout is blocked so I could get up a tempo before it stopped so I can't say how well or not it casts. Only that it's pretty hard. My measuring instrument is faulty so I have no idea of the melting point.

    The new alloy is tougher than the old going by the effort to cut the sprue but the sprue cuts clean while the old alloy 'plucked'. I'm betting that there is antimony and arsenic in that lead pipe!

    Addendum:
    I've found some info on lead pipe. It seems that it could have as much as 6% antimony! That sounds a bit high considering this is drawn pipe and is in no way brittle. It's not even all that hard (but it's not soft either). This may be comparable to popper's 6% Sb alloy?

    Anyway, I am certain of the amount of copper in the alloy. I weighed out the amount of copper shown, tinned it in the pewter and dissolved it in the melt. I checked this morning again and it's all gone so that means it has fully dissolved.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-29-2015 at 08:20 PM.
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  19. #479
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    That will explain why the high tin doesn't cause problems - it's balanced. What would be a reasonable As figure to use? I'm wondering whether lead pipe is similar to clip on WW?
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-31-2015 at 02:10 PM.
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  20. #480
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Well, I have tried estimating the make up of the pipe lead I used and found the estimated melting point (solidus) agrees with what I was able to measure (re-measuring needed). If this is correct or close enough then the alloy would seem to be not too bad. I still need to do proper casting tests though.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check