Testing BHN

[The Appalacian]

How long do you wait after casting to test your hardness? I'm working with pure lead, bullet cores, and wheel weight metal if that matters.

[mehavey]

Personal experience:
Pure lead, True Lyman#2 (5/5/90), or binary lead/tin -- almost immediately.
Wheel weight/unknown content/anything with arsenic -- couple of days/week to settle a bit

More here: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

[fc60]

Greetings,

"According to the standard (ISO 6506), the test load should be increased to its final value within a minimum of two to a maximum of eight seconds. Generally, the dwell time for the test load is 10 to 15 seconds (s). If the dwell time is any longer, the duration in seconds must also be specified in the hardness value, e.g.: 210 HBW 5/250/30 (dwell time of 30 s)."

https://www.zwickroell.com/industrie...test-iso-6506/

Cheers,

Dave

[The Appalacian]

Personal experience:
Pure lead, True Lyman#2 (5/5/90), or binary lead/tin -- almost immediately.
Wheel weight/unknown content/anything with arsenic -- couple of days/week to settle a bit

More here: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

Thank you for the info

[Delkal]

You can test them a few hours after they are cooled to get a rough idea of the harness. An alloy does harden with aging but for most of the softer alloys (<BHN 14) for pistol it is not that much and I never noticed a difference shooting them. Aging can make a difference with very hard rifle bullets though.

[The Appalacian]

You can test them a few hours after they are cooled to get a rough idea of the harness. An alloy does harden with aging but for most of the softer alloys (<BHN 14) for pistol it is not that much and I never noticed a difference shooting them. Aging can make a difference with very hard rifle bullets though.

Where I'm going is working up a good alloy with what I have for a good hunting bullet in a 45/70 (405gr) and a 35 Rem (200gr). I'm not interested at all in anything really hard. Both will be gas checked. I want to avoid leading of course, but I definitely want dependable performance on whitetails, and black bear if the opportunity arises. That being the main function of these two cast bullet project rifles. My harder stuff I'll save for plinking with a few handguns I have molds for.

I know there are recipes for alloys but I want to develope this stuff myself, and my limits are what I have on hand and can reliably aquire in the future. I bought a Lee Hardness Tester to do this and have been smelting my stuff down in 30 lb lots for a fair amount of uniform material. I've cast a handful of 45 cal 385 gr bullets from each lot as I was smelting it down for ingots so I can test them and know what hardness my base metals are.

[Delkal]

A 45/70 with a 400 gr bullet should not need a hard alloy or a gas check. Any range scrap with a BHN=10+ should work with no leading if it is sized correctly. Just work your way up till your shoulder tells you to stop and go hunting. A full power 35 rem is more challenging and will need a gas check, a harder alloy, and some experimenting so look for some recipes here.

I guess I have always been low tech and besides finding some pure lead sheeting and pipes to melt down everything I cast is from scrounged lead of unknown composition. I melt large lots of what I think is the same lead. Pure lead, range scrap, recovered shot, wheel weights (when you could find them), pewter and linotype/ monotype type all go into separate large batches. Then I make a test batch using an alloy calculator and my best guess for the composition of the larger batches. Weigh and write down your recipe for each test batch and when the hardness is what you want make a larger batch and cast away. I realize this is not as scientific or exact as buying known alloys but it can be a lot cheaper and making a few small batches to test is not that much extra work.

[mehavey]

...not interested at all in anything really hard.

Are you perchance open to powder coating?
You can stay remarkably soft/effective-expansion/weight-retention with PC'd bullets

[Chill Wills]

Have fun. You will do fine.
Having done the same, I found that there are many right ways to do it, but if you more or less have equal or more parts Tin to Antimony in the mix, the bullet will hold together better. Something in the range of 10 -13 BHN was good for me. FWIW - Straight WW Didn't measure fully hard for about 2-weeks. 50-50 WW plus 2% tin, a good hunting alloy, took about that long to test out max in a few days.

[The Appalacian]

A 45/70 with a 400 gr bullet should not need a hard alloy or a gas check. Any range scrap with a BHN=10+ should work with no leading if it is sized correctly. Just work your way up till your shoulder tells you to stop and go hunting. A full power 35 rem is more challenging and will need a gas check, a harder alloy, and some experimenting so look for some recipes here.

I guess I have always been low tech and besides finding some pure lead sheeting and pipes to melt down everything I cast is from scrounged lead of unknown composition. I melt large lots of what I think is the same lead. Pure lead, range scrap, recovered shot, wheel weights (when you could find them), pewter and linotype/ monotype type all go into separate large batches. Then I make a test batch using an alloy calculator and my best guess for the composition of the larger batches. Weigh and write down your recipe for each test batch and when the hardness is what you want make a larger batch and cast away. I realize this is not as scientific or exact as buying known alloys but it can be a lot cheaper and making a few small batches to test is not that much extra work.

Well, that's the mold I have, and I've plenty of gas checks, so it's a gas checked 405 gr for the 45/70.

Can't get much more low tech here friend. I listed my metals above, and the only thing purchased is 100 lbs of "soft" lead from an ebay source. I have those three not counting an excessive amount of monotype, and will be coming up with a good alloy from the lead, bullet cores, WW, in some pair or combination.

Thanks for the heads up on the 35 though.

[The Appalacian]

Are you perchance open to powder coating?
You can stay remarkably soft/effective-expansion/weight-retention with PC'd bullets

No...

[The Appalacian]

Have fun. You will do fine.
Having done the same, I found that there are many right ways to do it, but if you more or less have equal or more parts Tin to Antimony in the mix, the bullet will hold together better. Something in the range of 10 -13 BHN was good for me. FWIW - Straight WW Didn't measure fully hard for about 2-weeks. 50-50 WW plus 2% tin, a good hunting alloy, took about that long to test out max in a few days.

That's pretty much what I'm shooting for end result. Right now i just need to confirm the hardness of my base metals so i know which way to to go. Thanks.

[Delkal]

Sounds like you are set to cast. You might eventually need some tin for the harder alloys so start going to thrift shops and start buying pewter for around $4-5 a pound (hopefully). It usually is stamped pewter on the bottom but after a while you will instantly recognize it by its color and how it easily bends with your fingers. Like Chill Wills mentioned the best hunting alloys have about the same tin and Antimony composition (like 95-5-5) so with wheel weights or monotype you usually need a little more tin.

I personally like approx equal parts tin and antimony for hunting bullets even though you can get the same hardness (and more) just by adding antimony rich monotype. But not enough tin can also mean more brittle bullets. I also understand the economics since pure tin and solder goes for over $20 a pound but if you can balance a hunting batch with a dollar or two of thrift store pewter I would do it.

[The Appalacian]

Sounds like you are set to cast. You might eventually need some tin for the harder alloys so start going to thrift shops and start buying pewter for around $4-5 a pound (hopefully). It usually is stamped pewter on the bottom but after a while you will instantly recognize it by its color and how it easily bends with your fingers. Like Chill Wills mentioned the best hunting alloys have about the same tin and Antimony composition (like 95-5-5) so with wheel weights or monotype you usually need a little more tin.

I personally like approx equal parts tin and antimony for hunting bullets even though you can get the same hardness (and more) just by adding antimony rich monotype. But not enough tin can also mean more brittle bullets. I also understand the economics since pure tin and solder goes for over $20 a pound but if you can balance a hunting batch with a dollar or two of thrift store pewter I would do it.

Been unprofessionally casting since the early 90s back in my 20s. Wheelweights for pistol, and pure lead for muzzleloaders. That's when I acquired the monotype from the basement of an old newspaper, having helped melt it into ingots, and being told it was linotype at the time. Having the hardness tester educated me on it being much harder at 28 BHN, so monotype. I never messed with it much and gave a bit of my 500 lbs away over time.

I put the casting away for a good while taking up interest in long range precision shooting and competing in steel silhouette and PRS. My interests have shifted now though having retired from competing long range and I'm focusing on my modest collection of Marlin lever guns. Two of which I'm dedicating to cast loads only, and I want to take my old school rifles hunting with me, with bullets I cast myself. Got a 45LC and a 44mag, both single action pistols, that I might want to refine some casting for as well, and hunt with those. Just something to do after my beloved flintlock is put up and centerfire season comes in.
Thanks all, was just wondering how long to wait before I tested this stuff to be as accurate with my figuring as I could get.

[jsizemore]

Just a little stuff I've learned. You can mix anything but with casting alloys, you can't unmix it. And there's no need to reinvent the wheel. The guys that wrote the lasc stuff and ingot to target got lots of time behind the mold/gun and know what their talking/writing about. Some folks on here got the same creds. Others, not so much.

BHN is all nice and dandy, but what counts is how does the alloy react to be slapped in the rear end with a lot of pressure.

[Bigslug]

Delkal's laid down some good advice. Your wheelweight might take a couple weeks to settle, but isn't likely to start harder than 11-12BHN, or age to anything beyond about 13-14 BHN.

I sent a sample of jacketed bullet core material that I had carefully segregated pre-smelt to BNE for XRF testing, and it came back as 99.7% lead and 0.3% antimony. I would not expect those percentages to change much from batch to batch since that material is formulated for swaging to final shape. After sitting for two weeks, air cooled was 8.5BHN and water quenched only 9.5.

Your pure lead is of course pure lead.

Mixing the latter two with your wheelweights is only going to make them softer, and the alloy percentages low enough that you aren't going to see much change after a lengthy sit. Unless you start mixing your monotype in, I'd test immediately after reaching room temperature and again after a day or two and run with the result. Maybe leave a sample for a couple weeks to expand your knowledge of the mix, but I wouldn't hold off loading for that with that ingredient base.

[hc18flyer]

I segregated my components as I aquired them. I have coww, soww, linotype, and pure lead. I have purchased pewter and solder. I have utilized the alloy calculator from 'bumpo', from this Forum. I have sent off several samples of individual components and bullet alloys I have blended to 'BNE' and they have come back very close to what I expected. I have a tester and a microscope I found at a thrift store for a few bucks, but I haven't considered it necessary. I trust what I have read in the Cast bullet handbook and here on CB. I cast for several pistols and rifles, including my .357 Maximum rifle and a .45-70 as well. Pick an alloy, and fine tune your load. hc18flyer

[Good Cheer]

I always tested expansion rather than hardness.

[Hannibal]

When the time comes, I plan to go with a heavy bullet (> 400 grain), hollow point in soft lead (< 10 BHN) and black powder velocity.

If I can hit it, the target animal will have a VERY bad day.

[Chill Wills]

When the time comes, I plan to go with a heavy bullet (> 400 grain), hollow point in soft lead (< 10 BHN) and black powder velocity.

If I can hit it, the target animal will have a VERY bad day.

Yes. When that bullet gets where it is going, that is a combination that will move a lot of meat out of its way. Something like it was killing big buffalo when the first cartridge rifles came on the scene.