Sharps vs WCF chamber

[oldred]

When I chambered my High Wall barrel in 45/90 a couple of years ago I used a reamer for the 45/90 WCF because it was available and there was at least a 30 day wait on the Sharps chamber version. Lately I have been shooting a lot more BP (and having a lot more fun!) with the Lee 459-500-3R cast slugs which by design seats really deep in the case for a COL of only 3.07, I don't think some 500 to 540 grain designs would chamber properly unless they are seated much deeper than designed. How much difference is there between the WCF and Sharps chambers? Would it be practical to re-ream the chamber using the Sharps style reamer and would it be of any real benefit?

[bob208]

i don't know if there is any real difference. they are both .45-90. you already have the brass,dies and mold. why spend more money to change to almost the same caliber. use that money for powder and lead.

just checked my book they are the same.

sharps brought it out in 1874. winchester copied it in 1886 for the model 86.

[NickSS]

The so called Sharps 45-90 is really What sharps called a 45 2.4 inch chamber. Sharps loaded this chamber with a PP bullet and around 100 gr of powder. Winchester used the same case and loaded it with a 300 gr grease Groove bullet and 90 gr of powder for a so called Express load. Later Winchester made rifles with a 1 in 20 twist and loaded 405 gr and 500 gr bullets in that case but only with around 80 gr of powder. So the chambers are all the same. Some guys have throated their 45-90 (and 45-70 too) To allow seating bullets further out so that they can pack more powder in. I know several guys who did this and they all ended up installing new barrels as they could never get the throated barrels to shoot as well as they wanted

[oldred]

I had been told there was a difference in the throat and the Sharps version would accept heavier bullets seated farther out but researching it I could not find much info, there are however two different reamer listings.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/849...amer-45-90-wcf


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/731...-shiloh-sharps


I am not disappointed with my reamer choice but I am going to buy another mold so I can seat out to a longer COL for a bit more room in the case, since the WCF round was originally designed for shorter lighter bullets it made sense to me that maybe there was an advantage to using the Sharps chamber -maybe not after all.

[montana_charlie]

I copied this diagram from the Clymer site back when this kind of information was available from them.



I also have their 45/90 Winchester diagram ...



The images are the same, so you have to look at the numbers in the listings below them to see the differences.

Make note of 'F'.
While a 'Sharps' chamber could be 'opened up' to make a Winchester diameter, you can't go the other direction.

Then, notice the totals reached by adding 'K' and 'O'.
The 'Sharps' chamber comes out short enough to get a good fit from 2.4" brass, but the Winchester chamber is way too long. This is also seen in the guns made recently by Browning and Winchester.

While the first reamer is called the 'Sharps' chamber, I suspect it is actually the chamber used by the maker(s) in Big Timber.

The original Sharps chambers were (for the most part) too tight to use anything bigger than bore-diameter bullets.

CM

[oldred]

Well that answers my question, I will work with what I have. From what I can find out the Sharps is a somewhat better design for longer heavier bullets and I was thinking maybe I could change the chamber with a new reamer but obviously that's not going to happen! Thanks for the info.

[drcook]

Shiloh (Big Timber) has a reputation for tight chambers and IIRC there was a post where Kirk Bryan stated he had the reamers ground tight. All of mine are on the tight side (well within spec just tight, which is a good thing IMO).

In fact, my 45-110 Shiloh chamber is so tight that I cannot use Norma 45-120 brass cut back for grease groove bullets HOWEVER I have another 45-110 that was chambered with a commercial spec reamer, that while it is also well within design tolerances, has just enough clearance to allow the cut back Norma brass to be just perfect !

[oldred]

Hmm,, 45-110 now that would solve the problem nicely! Actually I had already considered reaming to the '110 and making the rifle BP only, now I think maybe I might do just that.

[drcook]

Don't forget the 45-100 also. I have one of them I also shoot. Brass for a 100 is significantly less expensive than for a 110. For a 100, you can buy brass straight from Starline and you are not giving up too much. I have run both the 100 and the 110 at 1000 yds and didn't feel handicapped with either.

The difference between my guns is the 110 weighs a little more and uses 10 grains more powder, 98 gr Goex 1F in the 100, 107/108 gr in the 110's, 107 in the Shiloh, 108 in the other brand.

[montana_charlie]

107/108 gr in the 110's, 107 in the Shiloh, 108 in the other brand.

This isn't the Shiloh website. It's okay to name the other brand.

CM

[MT Chambers]

Sometimes it seems like the Shiloh website! Winchester orig. considered the 45/90 to be an "express" chambering, thus the short throat, I'd have it opened a bit.

[drcook]

the "other brand" is actually a composite. it started life as a Pedersoli Competition rifle, which is a virtual clone of Shiloh LRE or Nbr 1 Sporter, right down to the weight, stock dimensions, except the fit and finish.

As an aside, I worked with Dick Trenk (he was a kinda acquaintance of mine) getting Pedersoli to build this rifle. Why they did it with the "coin metal finish" and the hideous faux pewter tip is beyond me though. They should have made it with the regular case hardened action and plain wood foreend.

But back the to "other brand". The chamber is cut with a 45-110 reamer the gunsmith I use had on hand. It cleaned up the Pedersoli chamber and is within a couple .001's of the Shiloh chamber, just big enough to allow 45-120 Norma brass to be cut back and used for greasers.

It shoots very well. Too bad the exchange rate and shipping has driven these rifles to be so costly. A few of us bought them when Cabelas cleared them out for 1200.00 if I remember. John Boy has one he had rechambered to 45-90.

Like I said though, don't discount the 45-100........

If I ever decide to sell some of my rifles to get another rifle built, it will be a 45-100 Shiloh with a 32" heavy octagon barrel