.45ACP leading continues - some answers, some new questions.

[RobS]

Have you pulled a dummy round and measured the very edge of the base band. Surprising how often a boolit can swage down in the case especially one that is seated deeper. When the base starts in on the thicker part of the web of the brass a nice .452” boolit can easily become much smaller in diameter. Also allowing a boolit to age before loading is important as well. Case swage can be an issue and when I load the 454640 HP, originally a 260 grain solid, and it seats quite deep in the 45 ACP case so I have to make sure I use an expander die to open up the brass or I end up with a boolit that has a base of .449” and to no surprise the soft HP leads like crazy.

[MtGun44]

Unique should be fine, not experienced with Orange Magic. Whenever someone has
a problem where a lube other than NRA 50-50 is involved, I recommend trying a few with
NRA formula as the only change -this frequently does the trick, or exhonorates the lube.

I agree that the WD is a total waste and may even be contributing to the problem.

Bill

[357shooter]

Sounds like the bullet is too small. Yeah, the alloy is much harder than needed, range lead or lead/ww mixed 2/1 or 3/1 would be much better.

What is the bullet diameter as cast? Just because they were put through a .452 sizer doesn't mean they are .452. They could be .450. If they measure bigger than .452, try them unsized. Definately not water dropped. That'll indicate if it's a size problem or not. If they are dropping from the mold small, that's a problem.

[Bigslug]

Well, I loaded up the last 36 of them today. Learned a little bit more:

The boolits were .4525" after the initial run through the .452" sizer. On running a few more through my .451" sizer. . . . . .they still measured .4525". I dunno. . .two identical dies, one of them mismarked, one out of spec - whatever.

Since it seems that there is no difference in the diameter of ANYTHING I've shot thus far, I've gone with extra lube up to the crimp groove and loaded half with Unique and the other half with Bullseye. I'll shoot them tomorrow. This will be the end of the 14BHN water-cooled slugs, and then we try again with air-cooled. Science marches on.

[40Super]

Did you ever slug your barrel to know what it actually measures?

I do know that once I got my bullets to a size that they were at least .001 over my barrel's, hardness didn't matter much other than changes to group sizes, they didn't lead even with 18-20bhn slugs, though the softer were more accurate in that 1911.

[357shooter]

Couple of things, first: what do the bullets measure before sizing them?

They measure larger than .452, however are you measuing with calipers instead of a micrometer? That can be a handicap because they round the measurement.

When you size the bullets, is there any resistance or any shine to the alloy after? I ask because I had some calipers that had a problem holding zero which nearly drove me crazy. The bullets were undersize, but measure larger. Just trying to make sure the "same size" bullets are really over .452 and that they actually being sized. They just may be smaller than what you think.

Taking anything for granted when working through an issue can create havoc and running down many rabbit holes.

[MtGun44]

+1 on NEEDING a .0001" rated micrometer, NOT a caliper. Calipers are +/-.001" you
can be .002" away from where you think you are.

Enco tools has a good quality Fowler brand mic that usually sells for about $35.

Bill

[Bigslug]

.40Super - No, I haven't slugged this barrel, and won't till I've got some softer slugs.

.357shooter and MtGun44. I believe they dropped at either .454 or .455, and the driving bands are getting burnished quite nicely by the dies.

The calipers in question are a set of Lyman dials - not digitals

[Cadillo]

One of my Sig P220's shoots great with bullets sized at 0.453". At 0.452" I get some light leading, but not at 0.453". I wish all my .45 acp barrels would chamber and function with that bullet size.

[MtGun44]

Try some NRA formula lube. I suspect a boolit that is actually too small.

No caliper can measure accurately enough for this application. Fact of life +/-.001" is just
not good enough.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PMAKA=619-3106

Worth it. No kickback from Enco, just know that this is a good mic at a great price.

Bill

[HangFireW8]

+1 on NEEDING a .0001" rated micrometer, NOT a caliper. Calipers are +/-.001" you
can be .002" away from where you think you are.

Here we go again.

If you use the same instrument on both the barrel slug and the boolit, it won't matter if it's off by .001" (assuming you use good technique and know your tools.) You can still determine if a boolit is undersized or oversized compared to the bore slug.

Now, if it has +/-.001 of backlash, that's another matter, time to get it fixed or replaced... of course, I have had to compensate and use instruments with worse backlash than that, from cheap employers, but I still got my work done, and done right, it was just harder.

I regularly use inexpensive calipers for boolit measurements, and can interpolate down to less than half of .001" with repeatable accuracy. (Actually, I can do better than that, but I don't want to hear all the howling if I stated the actual numbers). Of course, I check my instruments against standards and compare them with each other, and most important, know how to use them.

Frankly, little to nothing in reloading requires finer than .001" accuracy, with the exception of trying to estimate pressure using case head expansion on new cases. (I say trying, because even if your measuring is perfect, it is still an inexact process). If you are loading large numbers of cases where .0005" mean a difference in feed, function or accuracy, you're too close to the ragged edge and it is time to develop another strategy. Cast boolits don't like to be undersized, but it is rarely a problem to add another .001" to give a little leeway to avoid it.

Enco tools has a good quality Fowler brand mic that usually sells for about $35.

I'm not too keen on cheap 1/10K tools, I suppose some may be OK. I have the Mitutoyo vernier 1/10K blade micrometer, I pretty much only use it for case head expansion, or to verify other tools. Or just to handle it, it is a lovely instrument.

HF

[Aimstraight762]

I also have had some leading problems with my 1911. I bought my first mold, a lee 6 cavity 452 230gr RN. It is a tumble lube design, using Alox. I noticed leading when I bought some 452 200gr. TC from cabelas. So in my beginners think I got a bunch of wheel weights from a friend and started casting and quenching the boolits, thinking they were too soft. I sized to .451 and lubed twice as on the directions. I now have to either lap my barrel or buy a new one, because of scratches i put in it trying to get lead out. Please help.... I started this to shoot more not destroy my guns. Please feel free to message me directly. Other stuff you might want to know.
4.5 gr. unique seated just even with driving bands. Thought 5.5 grains was too fast and burning the pb off the boolit.

[MtGun44]

For accurate measurement, the measuring tool must be at least 4 times the required
tolerance. Any caliper is +/-.001". If you have a .0001" micrometer, you can count on
getting accurate measurements to .0004", which is plenty good enough for our
purposes.

You can imagine and dream all day about what your caliper will measure to and how
you can read between the lines. Fact is that in industry where is actually has to meet
tolerance to sell, 4X tolerance is the worst allowable measuring device permitted. On
anything in our company, that .001" caliper cannot be used on anything where the
tolerance on the drawing is tighter than .004" (+/-.002"). We build precision weapons
systems parts for the government.

Anything else is wishing and hoping, not science.

Bill

[40Super]

I'm with MTGUN 44, to say a caliper is repeatable to less than .0005",I call bs. I have used Starret's, mitituyo, and Brown and Sharpe, all their top models for my work and some have better "feel" than others , even the good ones, but there is limits to them. I have made over 100 high speed 420SS pump shafts 3ft long. tolerance @75F +/- .0002, total runout and diameters. I do know how to use good tools and that my take on this.

[Roundnoser]

I was shooting 452423 out of 1911 autopistols long before folks though it was possible. Leading has not been a real issue. A brass brush and some good solvent always do the job. Here are my thoughts on your issues.

1. Bullets too hard. Ditch the water quenching.
2. I size to .452
3. I do lube the crimp groove
4. I seat the bullet until their is just a smidge of body showing, just enough to get a good taper crimp.
5. I have used nothing but Bullseye powder. I don't give out charge weights on such things on the Internet.

This is right on the money! My boolits are an 8 BHN with a meduim target load of W231. I shoot this in three 1911's with no leading. Stick with the 452 diameter.

Also, when you apply a taper crimp, don't over do it. It only requires enough crimp to chamber properly...no more. -- I suggest removing your barrel from the pistol and using that to check for proper crimp.. Start wth no crimp (you will notice it won't chamber). Then slowly increase the crimp until the rounds are chambering consistently and reliably.

Lastly, and this is just a personal preference, I never really liked Orange Magic in pistol loads. I used it when I first started casting, and it never worked well for me. It always left a lot of foulng in my barrel. Once I switched to a lube that flows easily with slower velocity boolits (as compared to rifle boolit velocities), things improved. Just my experience.

[Bigslug]

The "hard ones" are now gone. They seemed to lead a little less with the crimp groove lubed, though that could just be down to the fact that I only had 18 left for each of the two powder types, instead of the 25 per test I'd been running.

Next up: Softer with same lube, then softer with Ben's Red. This episode will air at the conclusion of deer season.

[HangFireW8]

For accurate measurement, the measuring tool must be at least 4 times the required
tolerance. Any caliper is +/-.001". If you have a .0001" micrometer, you can count on
getting accurate measurements to .0004", which is plenty good enough for our
purposes.

You can imagine and dream all day about what your caliper will measure to and how
you can read between the lines. Fact is that in industry where is actually has to meet
tolerance to sell, 4X tolerance is the worst allowable measuring device permitted. On
anything in our company, that .001" caliper cannot be used on anything where the
tolerance on the drawing is tighter than .004" (+/-.002"). We build precision weapons
systems parts for the government.

Anything else is wishing and hoping, not science.

Bill

MtGun44,

I noticed you never addressed my comment on comparative measurements and the actual need for accuracy in reloading. You comments seem to only be concerned with absolute length measurements. If I could hear your comments on that first, I'll be happy to address your comments here.

HF

[MtGun44]

Absolute measurement is the only ones that mean anything. Comparative is
just a confusion factor, IMO.

Do whatever you want in your own guns. Facts are facts, measuring tools are
what they are, and will measure what they do, regardless of your opinion about what
you can do with them. I am not going to spend any more time 'convincint' you, but
I do want to make sure the OP has the facts so he can actually measure what he
needs and what he is making.

If you actually have to make parts that are worth a bunch of money and HAVE to
fit together, you have to measure accurately. "Comparative" is not in the vocabulary
of precision measurement. If you want to do it some other way - have at it, it is a
free world. I have been designing and building high precision equipment for critical
weapons systems for more than 30 years, and know a bit about how to do proper
precision measurement.

Bill

[HangFireW8]

You and I have something in common, Bill, we work in defense and have spent a lot of time measuring. Despite all the standards bodies, procedures, ISO, etc., when management says it ships, suddenly the measurements all come out OK and it ships. Sometimes it backfires, like my previous employer, when they were banned from making parts for NASA for a decade after the FBI raided our offices and carried off the QC/QA, origin and FAR flowdown records.

Funny thing, those same metrology guys still work in QC, I guess management values their ability to ship more than their ability to measure. They still have that attitude, though- they do it the "right" way.

I was trying to carry on the conversation using terms anyone can understand, but since you refuse to even read or try to understand what I'm saying, it is pointless.

For anyone else reading, if you pull a Sierra bullet out of the box and your dial caliper measures .308" or .357" on the money, do you really need to buy a more expensive instrument to verify that measurement? If you measure a bore slug at .308" and your boolit at .309", do you really need to put away the caliper and get a 1/10K micrometer out to verify it? Or, do you know enough to procede? Answer that question for yourself.

[40Super]

The whole point is that when you slug your bore,your trying to get as true a number as possible(one of the few area that is is desireable to be accurate) , if the average caliper/user of calipers can be +/-.001(very easily) what is the point of slugging? so your calipers "say .356", well that could really be .355,-.357. Now try buying a mold or sizing die for your .356" bore (when it is really .357") spend time and money doing that, what is going to be the outcome? Another thread asking why they are getting leading. Ya it may work well enough as strictly comparing the slug right next to your bullet, but often they are buying by "true" sizes, when ,because the calipers weren't "ON" they buy too small bullets or sizing dies ect.. The other way around (reading small) they then have bullets that may work fine(likely) or too big to reliably chamber.

In this particular area, I will ALWAYS insist on using a Micrometer.


Sorry to Bugslug for this getting kind of off base, it is one of those "conflicts" that have two sides.