simple lube.

[btroj]

Isn't everything Run types a bit cryptic? Hence my term, Runisms. He does have a particular style.

I think Simple Lube is a great step forward. Easy to make. Easy to obtain ingredients. Would fit the bill for 90 percent of all shooting.

I need to find a day with decent weather to get out and see how Bens Red handles the cold. Need to sight in the 375 with the scope my wife got me for Chritmas too.

[runfiverun]

yeah it takes me a while to express what i see in my head.
i see pictures of how things work and then have to try and express the mechanics of it in words and sometimes the words i use have two different meanings or seem to contradict each other.
it's like a jaxketed boolit striking a medium i "see" the lead and jaxket flowing and moving together not just the boolit opening in a certain way.
it's how i see lube/pressure and alloy working in a barell.
only i have a hard time slowing everything down in the throat enough to express what's happening.
and then i get a migraine.

[btroj]

I totally understand the "see it in the mind" thing. Trying to describe to others what you can visualize can be a pain.
I have that issue with my father, he isn't a visualizes at all. Needs to see it on paper.

I must not be thinking hard enough, I don't get migraines. I am OK with that.

[runfiverun]

felix put up a post in the extreme thread.
i highlighted part of it, explaining the middle section of what the lube smear was showing.
a middle modifier is what was needed to fix the smearing right there, something that made the transition from when the oils were working to when the waxes were working.
remember the wax is what takes up the pressure and makes the jump in the throat but it is just a solid wax at that point and contributes nothing to the lubrication [no wet] unless ambient temperature,or too much oil, causes it to be.

[btroj]

So wax is what keeps the gas blowby under control in the throat til we get a good seal. That is where the transition from wax to oil takes place. Now the oil gets released (?) by the carrier and wets the bore. The place where this transition takes place is the variable.

That about right?

It makes sense to me. Years ago I was getting throat leading in my 1911. BassAkwards suggested a thin coat of LLA on the same lubed bullets to stop this. It worked like a charm. All I was doing was stopping gas blow by.

It is all coming clearer and clearer to me.

[Marlin Junky]

So wax is what keeps the gas blowby under control in the throat til we get a good seal. That is where the transition from wax to oil takes place. Now the oil gets released (?) by the carrier and wets the bore. The place where this transition takes place is the variable.

That about right?

It makes sense to me. Years ago I was getting throat leading in my 1911. BassAkwards suggested a thin coat of LLA on the same lubed bullets to stop this. It worked like a charm. All I was doing was stopping gas blow by.

It is all coming clearer and clearer to me.

Yeah, John Barlow had a really good idea way back in '06.

MJ

[runfiverun]

yeah and further down the bbl you have a point where gas pressure drops off.
this allows the boolit and the lube seal to relax making another transition where the lube has to remain in [or get to] a wet stage enough to cover up the boolits relaxation and seal.
hopefully the wax is in a plastic enough state by now to make the transition not too wet or too hard.
then you need the glide going out to the end of the barell so that the lube can be flung off.
at any time before the relaxation point the lube being too viscous can cause gas cutting.
it being not viscous enough during and after this point causes jettison issues and can contribute to muzzle leading.

[FrankG]

How many sticks would the recipe in the first post yield if poured into hollow stick moulds ? I would like to be able to do a batch run while Im at it

[runfiverun]

i'm not sure what a hollow stick weighs, about an oz i think.
a batch will do about 2,000-2,500 429241's or 454424's
or about 12 million 38 boolits [probably 5-k] it just seems like 12 million.

[SlippShodd]

How many sticks would the recipe in the first post yield if poured into hollow stick moulds ? I would like to be able to do a batch run while Im at it

I made a 1/4 batch today (used some blue semi-synth 2-stroke so I'd get green lube, dammit... first batch I did with regular 2-cycle was boring tan) and poured a .75"x3.75" solid stick. I held a little back 'cuz there was some gak in the bottom of my pouring cup that I didn't want in the stick.
I'll be more clever with my next stick mold so they're hollow...

mike

[MBTcustom]

yeah and further down the bbl you have a point where gas pressure drops off.
this allows the boolit and the lube seal to relax making another transition where the lube has to remain in [or get to] a wet stage enough to cover up the boolits relaxation and seal.
hopefully the wax is in a plastic enough state by now to make the transition not too wet or too hard.
then you need the glide going out to the end of the barell so that the lube can be flung off.
at any time before the relaxation point the lube being too viscous can cause gas cutting.
it being not viscous enough during and after this point causes jettison issues and can contribute to muzzle leading.

And I guess all this is having to happen over top of the residue left from the previous shots, which must play a role too.
I understand why you would want a "dryer" lube that does not leave any residue. If nothing else, it makes the residue left in the barrel less of an issue, one less in a list of about ten to fifteen.

It's kind of like trying to find your way out of a locked room with doors of every size, (some you can barely fit through) and a kiosk in the center of the room that has 100 keys on it, that must be pushed in a certain order to unlock a door.
Or trying to guess the combination of a safe that has three dials on it?
That's what makes my head swim. More than three variables that can change the equation. With lube, it seems like every change causes an effect on everything else.

[btroj]

Tim, if it was easy would it be fun? Aren't some of the projects you have worked on similar? Figuring out how to machines a part for exampl. Done in the right order it isn't bad, do it out of order and things go to heck quick.

I will say to certain that the more technical aspects of this are new ideas to me. Never though about what happens to the bullet part way down the barrel when the pressure drops low enough to stop ensuring obturation of the bullet. Once Run mentioned this it becomes obvious that the lube needs to be capable of ensuring a seal is held. Isit obvious to a casual observer? Nope. I think it is interesting that this may be the cause of muzzle leading.

Biggest thing to understand is that a lube, like a bullet, goes thru numerous parts of the firing sequence and what happens at each has unique demands. That was the big "ahhhh" moment for me in all this.

[Eutectic]

Isn't everything Run types a bit cryptic? Hence my term, Runisms. He does have a particular style.

I agree! Run is indeed unique! There is a LOT of experience inside Run that is trying to come out to help us all....

I said early on in the "Extreme" thread that Run just might be the one to come up with 'it'.... 'It' being The Extreme lube formula. I still believe this.

While he can come across as 'cryptic'. I believe him genuine. I see no innuendos or 'cryptic camouflage' in any of his posts.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

you both have a good grasp of the idea.
the thing is [term trick comes to mind] is you have a different gas volume to deal with 5 grs of red dot or whatever in the 45 is different than 10 grs of unique or 18 grs of 2400 or 30 grs of 4895 in different barells.
so you have that pressure peak in different places,and a relaxation point in different places along the barell.
keeping the lube friction high helps the carry over of the different ingredients across the length of the barell.
keeping just enough oil release to not muck up the works helps keep the seal.
this is why we have gotten away from the high oil content lubes and have shifted to low oil content high friction ones.
we are focusing on the middle modifier that will help on both ends.
i need to get in gear and go grab some mineral oil for a sodium soap modification i wanna try.
to try and replace the inferior grade of vaseline we have available right now.

[rhbrink]

Well now I know why I sometimes get a rough spot in my 03A3 barrel about 3/4 of the way down the barrel, shoot enough and then sometimes lead will show up there and not at the muzzle. It doesn't happen with a premium lube that I buy but does with most of the home made varietys and some of the receipes that I have tried here. The Simple lube did for me too so I added some X- Lox to it but haven't had a chance to try it.

Richard

[runfiverun]

excellent.....some good feed back.
richard.
let us know how the alox works.

your little fuzz spot there is exactly what i was describing.
i'd like to know your powder [i have an idea what it's burn rate is allready]
alox does make the lube a little softer and more flexable but it might have some purge flyers.
and they may not show up untill late into a long string of fire [around 18-20 shots]

this is the negotiable part i was talking about earlier, another tsp of vaseline or 1/2 tsp of atf could fix this part of it for richard.
the non standardization of vaselne/white petrolatum is letting us down again.

[rhbrink]

18 grains of 2400 with NOE 311299 for one load this has been my go to load for about a year and often I shoot the rifle until it gets hot as in competition during the heat of last summer. I was thinking that 2400 was the problem so I switched to 5744 and that didn't seem to make any difference. I also started shooting the new NOE 311365 which holds more lube than the 299 and still didn't make any noticable difference. The lube store bought lube was LBT which for sure works but I seem to get a purge problem now and then with it usually right at the worst time, usually during a match after a long string all of a sudden there goes a couple of wild flyers. I recently bought a some White Label 2500+ and it shoots very well but haven't shot it enough to find any problems.

I would really like to make my own and keep following threads like this one thanks to you and Felix and several others I keep plugging along looking and expermenting. Keep up the good work and thanks.

Richard

[runfiverun]

i was thinking 17-18 grs.
try just a little more of the vaseline [one more tsp per batch]

[rhbrink]

Will do.

RB

[shooter93]

You know Lamar....the simplest way for me to get the simple lube would be for you to just send me a 100 lbs.