simple lube.

[Nrut]

Thanks R5R,
And thanks for sharing the work that you have done with bullet lubes!

[ubetcha]

R5R. did you say in your last post to use regular 2cycle oil and not synthetic?
I don't want to screw up either.Just want to make sure I'm reading everything right

[runfiverun]

yeah regular 2 stroke.

we are still workng over the synthetic 2 stroke lubes [gearknasher is mostly]
they seem to respond better to some manipulation of their solvent bases.

we are still working over a sodium stearate based lube trying to refine the process.
once we get that one done we will have a very,very good all round lube.
it however will be much more complicated to make and will be more ingredient specific.

this one is called simple lube because it is simple.
simple to make and negotiable.
you are looking for a specific viscosity from batch to batch.
you use the vasoline to adjust your beeswax to get that same visc from batch to batch.
i weigh and measure so i know what's in there.
adding a little more of the oils makes a difference in the lubes final visc inside the barell.
if you are seeing a little something towards the end of the bbl add a titch more atf. [think you are running out of lube] which you aren't.
if in the middle [lube smears] use just a little more vasoline to make the pressure drop off a little smoother.

this lube can be changed for real cold weather with the addition of a small amount of neatsfoot/mink oil, 1/2 tsp is enough.
but will make the lube respond unfavorably in hot weather.

stay tuned.

[ubetcha]

Made some simple green this morning and everything seems to be good so far.Not crumbly and is slightly tacky.now will let it set a few days and see how it finishes.

[ubetcha]

Goodsteel.That is a good list you have ,but I have read on many occasions that the bullet should be sized at or .001-.002 over throat size in a revolver.

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel.That is a good list you have ,but I have read on many occasions that the bullet should be sized at or .001-.002 over throat size in a revolver.

That's true, but we are talking about lube, not revolvers.
The point I was trying to make is that irregaurdless of the platform, finding the perfect lube is the final touch in the perfect cast boolit load.
Most shooters need a lube. Booliteers need the lube.

[runfiverun]

excellent tim.
some lubes have a better window as far as pressure/velocity,and alloy compatability.
it's easier to make [modify] a lube [to] work at one end of the pressure/temperature spectrum than it is to make a lube with broad applcations.

[MBTcustom]

I am actually just fine with a lube that is temperature specific if I can tune that lube to work. The big problem for me is knowing how much to tune that lube.
I have been using FWFL since I discovered it, and yours is the next one I am going to try. I bought all the components, now I just have to whip it up and hack out some time to go shooting.

[runfiverun]

carnuba for the heat and atf for the cold. for the felix.
you end up with two lubes and have to switch up between 40-50-f going both directions.
3-4% carnuba and bout the same on the atf

eutetic has been working over a synthetic felix,and an offshoot in his core testing.
he has had some good luck with modified carnuba wax with ester's and alox 350.
in a rough pitted barell,down to @ minus 14.
he done some initial testing of a sodium stearate lube in cold weather too.
we are gonna work the boundary's on this one pretty hard.
don't be surprised to see a hybrid sodium/not so simple lube at some point.

[MBTcustom]

Well, that's why I want to try SL. With FWFL you have to have several totally different batches of lube. It works like magic when you get it right, but it's a bit of a PITA.
I am hoping to see a bigger temperature tolerance with SL and a much simpler process for modifying it to temperature.
Have you ever thought about experimenting with a cold barrel treatment? Like some wonder goo that you can run a saturated patch down the barrel to kind of "prime the pump" as it were?
Something that would make your first cold shot do pretty much what it's supposed to?
I was considering messing with something, but I am no chemist, and your exploits have convinced me that I am not cut out for lube developing game. I know a little bit about the right way to use lube, but I don't have a clue as to why it works. My mind is based in mechanics. If you need a precision platform to launch your boolits from, then I'm your guy, but you start talking chemistry or electricity, and I can show you how dumb I really am.

[geargnasher]

Tim, I think many of us started out with the concept of initiating and maintaining a 'wet' barrel, but we're finding that the LESS left in the barrel the better recently. This means soft, "drier" lubes with high film strength that get their job done quietly like a good janitor and you never knew they were there. You'll know you have it right when your first shot from a clean, dry barrel is the same as the tenth shot in the chosen ambient temperature range.

Like I've said before, a good lube won't make an accurate load, but it will sure break one. A good lube does its job by not detracting from the accuracy potential of the rest of the system. Inherently, it can do nothing on it's own to "improve" accuracy, that's done with the way the other components are assembled and tuned.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that's where the core principle is coming into it's own.
barell condition [internal] is having an effect on how some lubes are proving out.
the rougher the barell the more solid the lube needs to be.
the smoother the thinner type oils seem to play a bigger part.
i'm not sure just yet if it's reacting like oil in an engine or not in how the lube plays a part in the pores of the steel [scratches]
i have read a few times on what has been said about too smooth of a barell not shooting well.
i'm sure this combined with a lubes vi index does have a compatability issue in the long run.
pressure on the boolit from lands and grooves [redial and forward] along with gas pressure also plays a big part in what vi index is needed.
theres a balance needed.
a good lube as pointed out needs a friction index also, whether it's introduced or part of the carriers vi index isn't as important as when/if the lube wet's and flows under these stressors.
all a lube needs to really do is block gas from escaping along the boolit-rifling interface and disappear from the boolit at the muzzle.
it needs to work in the throat and in the bbl [oddly two different situations] and when the powder relaxes enough for the alloy to flex back and settle down in the bbl.
this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.

that's the simple easy explanation.

[MBTcustom]

this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.

Run that one my me again, in words that a child could understand.
Seems like you are telling me how to measure something.
So far, my aproach to lubes is pretty hulk smash by you fellers standards. I tried FWFL and got it right, and I think I got lucky with a cold weather modified version (thanks Gear!) but I have not had occasion to test it much. All I know is the boolit landed pretty darn close to where I was aiming at 75 yards when I blew a deer to pieces with too soft a boolit It was freaking cold that day 15* or thereabouts.
Right now its about 50* outside and raining like crazy which is typical Arkansas in January. I think i have a few cold days left to do some testing in, and I want to get as far as I can when it gets cold. I really got caught with my pants down this year. Usually rifle season in Arkansas is about 50 degrees, but this year we had a sudden cold snap right before opening day.
I had not had occasion to really test the lube in cold weather since last year, and back then, I was focused on paper patching, so I missed the opportunity.
I called gear the day before the hunt with a lot of questions.
So, I started reading up on lube.
If you have a quick and easy way to tell if the lube is close, then I want to hear it.

I might also add, that what would totally suffice in place of the ultimate lube, would be an ingredients chart that would show how to whip it up for different temperature ranges. I could make three-four batches of lube, and color them differently. Each one would handle a certain 20-30 degree range of temperature.
That is how I am planning to approach the "quest". If SL is as tunable as FWFL, then I'll sure give it a try.

[btroj]

Tim, having different lubes like that would make it easy, wouldn't it?
My only problem is that I often have ammo loaded for deer season that I may end up shooting up the next summer. Now I am shooting a 20 degree lube at 80 degrees. I don't have unlimited brass so I often need to shoot up ammo in order to get empty cases for a new load idea.

I think Gear and Run are getting close to a multi-temp lube. Eutectic came along with some ideas that made a right turn in the design process, a turn that it loos made a huge increase in success rate. Sometimes that new view on things is a boon, keeps one on his toes and eliminates tunnel vision.

I don't know that you need 20 degree windows really. A 40 and below lube and a 50 and above lube would be fine. Between 40 and 50 either would work acceptably, I would probably favor the colder weather formula.

I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it. There is way more to this stuff than I am supposed to know, makes my brain hurt otherwise.

Brad

[ubetcha]

The batch of SL I made yesterday kept calling me last night and this morning .I couldn't wait to let it sit a few day.I used it as a pan lube and it worked quite well.Soft enough to cut with a cake cutter and stiff enough to stay in the lube groove. Still nice and tacky.Can't wait to range test it.Just cleaned my Ruger Security Six so I can test the load next time at the range .Two bullets I will be using are the Lyman 358477 and the Lee 358-158 rfn. All unsized at .359 and with an alloy of 2-1 coww/soww. 4.5gr W-W 231.

[MBTcustom]

Another thing I might mention is that I am interested in lube specifically for rifle shooting. My dad was a pistol shooter and a cast booliteer. I followed in his footsteps for several years, but my love is for rifles. They aren't any better, I just can't get enough of 'em!

I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it.

Well run if that is what you are saying, then I'm in trouble. I would have to start changing something in my setup in order to make the gun start leading. Right now, even in cold weather, I get no leading at 2000fps and air cooled WW lubed with FWFL.
My boolits are fit correctly, and I can do the same thing with one coat of 45/45/10. I'm not using the lube to control leading, I want to use it to improve accuracy.
It seemed to me that you were talking about lube dispersal, possibly a lube star?
Please elaborate my good man!
Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys are talking about exactly what I want to know, and I'm not sure I could catch this wave in a new thread!

[runfiverun]

it's not always about leading.
quite often what we see in the barell is lube/powder fouling.
i found lube tweaking when i was using carnuba red in my 44.
about half way down the barell in my levergun there was something,rough looking and all feathery.
grrrrr
so in goes a patch and out comes some lube&gunk nice and easy like.
hmm out comes a piece of paper tape and i make a mark on the barell.
i happen to have several loads and several lubes with me that day just a clean out the closet type thing.
so i try the load again yeah there it is.
swap to the same lube but with a different powder.
it's still there but it has moved down the barell about 1-1/2-two inches??
patch time same gunk just in a different place.
aha light bulb weak and dim but still on.
gas volume.
i can manipulate this.
next lube things change,next lube clean barell it looks like,next lube gunk all the way down the barell wth.
patch time eeewwww look at all that gunk
lets try again.
same rounds ,,,nothing ....what? nothing.
clean patch comes out clean,,, now how does that happen.
that lube was cleaning out the other lube and that was what i could see the first time.
even though i couldn't see the first lube in the barell is was leaving traces behind.
the lube that was cleaning out the other lubes was/is a lith grease based lube [thickened further with aluminum stearate] it has done the same thing in other guns too.
but had a tendency to throw an occasional purge flyer.
so i started thickening it up some trying to control it's free oils.
got a good mix,then watched it fall apart when the heat come.
i could add more wax and control them further.
if you wanted a lube you could manipulate up and down for heat index in small 20-30 degree windows that would be it.
you would be able to add some carnuba/b-wax at 80 and take the lube to 100+
take the carnuba out and go down to 40,take out some of the b-wax and go down further to 20 or lower if you truly run into 0 and below then adding another oil would bring out what you need there.
manipulating a known good lube is nothing more than controlling the release of oils in temp specific zones.

[btroj]

So lube purging is simply a case of having a lube so fluid that it moves the gunk clean out of the muzzle. I am also assuming that most lubes that tend to have purge issues also leave a really wet lube star?

I am also reading into this a bit more. The viscosity change is what determines how far down the tune the goo builds up. Close to breech, thin the mix. Clear out the muzzle, thicken it up. We aren't really adding or subtracting lubrication, we are simply modifying the total lube viscosity and how it behaves under pressure in the barrel.

So a short barrel like a handgun may not show issues in cold the same as a rifle as the lube in a handgun may still be able to have the goo blown clear of the muzzle.

That is my take on the current Runisms.

[geargnasher]

So lube purging is simply a case of having a lube so fluid that it moves the gunk clean out of the muzzle. I am also assuming that most lubes that tend to have purge issues also leave a really wet lube star?

I am also reading into this a bit more. The viscosity change is what determines how far down the tune the goo builds up. Close to breech, thin the mix. Clear out the muzzle, thicken it up. We aren't really adding or subtracting lubrication, we are simply modifying the total lube viscosity and how it behaves under pressure in the barrel.

So a short barrel like a handgun may not show issues in cold the same as a rifle as the lube in a handgun may still be able to have the goo blown clear of the muzzle.

That is my take on the current Runisms.

That is pretty much it. Simple Lube is a basic approach to doing this, and it can take higher velocity and pressure than some of the other simple lubes (like beeswax/vaseline), so is more useful, and it won't accumulate hard fouling like the classic NRA 50/50. Just adjust the total viscosity for the temp with vaseline or ATF, and add/subtract the two-stroke oil to deal with gum issues. I think two versions would be plenty to run the gambit of temps.

To make and all-around lube, you have to find ingredients to balance the lube through the entire spectrum of temps, pressures, velocities, lube groove volume, and bore finish. I think we're really close to this with several formulas, just need more testing.

Simple Lube, though, will probably end up doing it all with two versions provided you don't expose the ammo to too much heat. Ben's Red is another good, basic, middle-of-the-road lube, basically a replacement for NRA 50/50. Felix Lube is still my Go-To when all else fails, but to do it all I've needed to adjust it.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Tim, I know you're after some specific formulas, and they will come with more testing I'm sure, but in the meantime, try the Simple Lube per the recipe, two strings of ten shots each, five to a group, allowing the rifle to cool to near ambient temperature in between. Examine the bore, muzzle crown, etc., and overlay the four targets in the order they were shot to see what happened to the groups. Numbering each shot helps, especially if you get flyers. That should be all it takes to get an idea of how it's working. If your groups hold up.

Longhorn lube was doing really well until after the first ten in a session, I was getting 1-2 bad flyers in the second set of ten, near the end. It helps to know exactly where the flyers are occurring in the count for lube adjustment. Also, more data is better, I didn't conclude I was having flyers until about the fourth set of 20 shots from two different guns, several lube tweaks were made and many more groups fired, and lo and behold, the changes to the lube had a very obvious effect. You do this long enough and you can sort of predict what will do what and allow you to speak in the somewhat cryptic generalities that Run and I tend to do here.

Gear