simple lube.

[rlb]

Shot about 12 rounds through the 454 so far with air cooled ww with no lead yet. Have to get a scope on it and try some paper shooting to get it honed in.

[felix]

With my very limited experience using the 30-221 upper attached to the stock Bushmaster lower, lube is not as important as the boolit style. So, in your testing, find the most accurate boolit first before deciding on the final lube composition. The 8 twist with its long gas return tube, plus the lack of case capacity, plus the 1100 fps restriction, restricts the auto function of the gun to a VERY few powders. I won't use any primer other than the 41CCI because of my fear of a loading mishap (I almost had a case separation on a once fired converted 223 case), and that alone does not make for valid experimentation on my part. The 680 powders with a 308299 boolit is the best so far by a long shot using a Leupold triangle reddot for sighting at 50 yards. 3 shots into a quarter, for example. ... felix

[felix]

Leading is not the problem, typically. Accuracy is. Fix any leading with boolit diameter choice. ... felix

[rlb]

So any lube will be good enough? Should I be shooting the right sized boolit without lube?

[runfiverun]

excellent, thank's felix.
boolit style, and it's relationship to the throat,is definatly the biggest factor in accuracy.
a tweak of a lube can help gain the final little bit's,
or completly blow groups apart...

[leftiye]

So any lube will be good enough? Should I be shooting the right sized boolit without lube?

Depends how you like removing lead from your bore. Using no lube is close to insanity in anything but a very slow pistol load.

What was said was that most any lube (unless totally deficient) will work well enough to find an accurate load, and that then you might probly benefit from a good lube. As R5R said, lube can ruin a good load if you use a poor enough lube.

[MBTcustom]

Look fellers, what Felix is saying is that lube has very little to do with leading and a lot more to do with accuracy. If you get the size of the boolit right, with the right hardness also(not too much and not too little), Then you could shoot it with nothing more than a graphite tumble and have no leading. (I would submit to you the lowly 22lr cartridge. How do they get good results out of very soft lead and almost no lube??? Hmmmmm!)
Lube is important once you get on paper. You find the right lube and magical things begin to happen. Unfortunately, lots of people try to use lube as a crutch so that they can get away with shoddy boolit fit/hardness, and sometimes it works, but there will come a time when you just cant get the stupid thang to shoot any better. At that time you have to unlearn a whole slew of misconceptions before you can move forward.
Shooting cast boolits accurately isn't hard, but you have to understand the fundamentals, and the castboolits creed if you want to take it all the way. Doing it the wrong way is "good nuff" for hunting and general plinking, but if you want the X ring, or anything close to it, you must put these things in order.
1. You need a good rifle/pistol
2. Find the groove diameter
3. Size the boolits .001-.003 over the groove diameter depending on the hardness of your alloy.
4. Work through several powders focusing on primer selection
5. Once the primer is selected, work through the powders again till you find the best combo
6. No leading, good primer, good powder, now observe boolit design. Try several in the same weight class.
7. No leading, good primer, good powder, good boolit, and pretty fair accuracy. You may now experiment with the delicate matter of boolit lube.
Had you not followed that process, or something similar to it, you wouldn't be able to tell whether the lube was a good one or a bad one because the difference between a good one and a bad one is slight. When everything else is right, the lube might take you from a 1.5" group to a .5" group.

Incedentally, archers do the same thing with their fletching. They work with the spine of the arrows and the adjustment of the rest until they can shoot a bare shaft (no feathers) and hit the point of aim. After the feathers have been glued on, those fellers can shoot aspirins off the target butt if they want to.

So you see, this is not backwards thinking, it's real shooting!

[felix]

Hopefully, all the new guys will read your insight, Tim. ... felix

[leftiye]

Great post Tim. I'd put the selection of boolit design in there somewhere nearer the start. Though you may want to experiment with several designs over time later. It helps to know some about boolit design, though thas another subject.

[MBTcustom]

That's true, but I could write two pages about all the various sundry details of boolit/powder/twist rate etc etc etc. the point is that the lube is the icing on the proverbial cake. At least that's the way I see it.

[Marlin Junky]

the point is that the lube is the icing on the proverbial cake. At least that's the way I see it.

Maybe so; however, while I'll eat cake w/o icing, I will not shoot a Pb based alloy w/o lube... granted, I have not shot a Pb/Sn/Cu alloy yet.

MJ

[rlb]

So I have had the boolit size and what not right for the past 8 years or so, but I have had lubes fail and cause leading. That's what I was getting at in post #101. New to the forum, yes, new to boolits, no.

[Flinchrock]

Awww, come on now, that can't possibly be any good without at least two different kinds of metal salt gellants, polybutene, polyolester oils, and synthetic EP ester additives now can it?

Gear

And maybe a little Ballistol and a dab of possum fat...

[felix]

Is that a brand new gun in #101? That gun is considered new if it "leads" up with guilding metal using max condom loads while the gun is HOT.. Verify with a copper solvent after a cylinder's worth when the gun has been hot enough that you cannot hold the barrel for 10 seconds or so. That gun must be "used" to shoot cast well. ... felix

[MBTcustom]

I like sweets 7.62 for getting copper fowling out of the barrel. If you dont start with a clean barrel, then you will be dealing with leading, because the lead sticks to copper like barnickles to a pirate ship.

[rlb]

It's a DMAX gun with a brand new Mcgowen barrel that I just put on a few weeks ago. The barrel is one of the smoothest inside that I have ever seen. It's never had anything but boolits through it. I think it is going to be a shooter. Figured with the high operating pressure of the Casull round it would be a good simple lube test. When I get the scope base installed and get a new scope we will check the groups. Right eye isn't quite working for the irons anymore.

[felix]

Gun bearing surface needs to be between 600 and 800 grit for "normal" lubes to adhere thoroughly through cylinder exits and barrel. Try adding viscosity in increments until the lube works as you intend, and as surfaces get naturally rougher, start backing off the viscosity in increments so winter shooting becomes commensurate with summer shooting. Those are the games we all play with aging guns. ... felix

In your situation, an antimony wash throughout your system is desirable to help aging. As our guns get older we try and eliminate that to make the barrel look clean after a day's shoot. Don't mistake the look of the wash with undesirable leading...accuracy is your determination on what trash is. An occassional flyer should be ignored because of possible lube purging because of high viscosity. Ideally, viscosity of lube should be close to zero in the perfect lube to prevent purging, but then we would be limited to shooting in zero degree weather. So, what is it? Bad boolit or purging? Only you would know. ... felix

[runfiverun]

you run into the fight of antimony.
if you use a high content or water drop you end up with antimonial dendrites.
they have a tendency to scrape a bbl.
but at some point it seems to pretty much stop.
some lubes seem to combat antimonial wash too.

but yeah the trick is to have lube viscosity consistency.

[Nrut]

R5R,
~~~2 teaspoons of two stroke oil [i use cd-2]~~~

What is cd-2?
I did a search and it doesn't appear to be a brand name but a oil detergent..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.autobarn.net/ch4111-12.html
CD-2 Oil Detergent frees sticky lifters, valves, and rings to quiet noisy engines. Dissolves sludge, carbon, and gum to extend engine life. Cleans all internal engine parts for more pep and power. Protects critical engine parts during high speed or stop and go driving.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you use regular two stroke oil or synthetic?
Sorry for the "ned" questions but don't want to screw up your recipe when I try making your lube..

[runfiverun]

i don't think they make it any longer.
cd-2 is just the brand name of the 2 stroke oil i use right now cause i have a little in a container, i have also used itasca brand from the local dollar store. [it's in a little green bottle and is about 4oz's]
and the silver jug from walmart or alco,i forget the name of it and the boat is in storage.
the description of cleaning the carbon is what the 2-stroke is for, it also leaves a very low ash content behind when burned.
allowing the atf to be the bore conditioner.
brand name isn't important the base ingredients are and most 2 stroke base ingredients are very similar [the same] it's what they add that gives them their advertising gimmick.
just like gasoline slogans.
just plain ole 2 stroke oil is what you want, it's nothing fancy like synthetic or ultra uuber nothing.
it's mostly a mineral oil base [like the vasoline] and polyol's [like the atf base]
and ester's [like the b-wax]