Do you think we shall ever see a viable plastic jacketed bullet?

[beex215]

didnt read it all but there are plastic ammo for sale. it should work.

[air@mho.net]

They are painting(type of plastic) also powder coating. Its a whole new world.

[icebones762]

Have you thought about instead of a "full plastic jacket" (Dont have the same ring to it as FMJ huh?) Designing something that attaches plastic driving bands around the boolit? I can see something that presses a few "O-rings" of plastic over the lube grooves. You would use less plastic, and I dont see the plastic stripping out. The 30mm rounds the GAU-8 fires in the A-10 all have plastic driving bands on them. And I imagine that 30mm beast undergoes alot more torque and G forces going down the bore than any shoulder fired weapon ever though about. Unless maybe its something fast like a .220 swift going down a 1:7 twist barrel. So instead of a plastic jacket and a swaged lead core you would have a slightly under size boolit with 2-4 oversized plastic bands that will take the riffling and provide a gas seal. Sort of a cross between a true sabot and those Powerbelts I used to fire in my muzzle loader.

[cloakndagger]

I had a thought on this last night, why not start with something we already have.. the .410 shotgun shell.. now, it fits in a 45LC hole... so, why not cut it down to that length and load it up? What is yall's opinion?

[MBTcustom]

Well, consider this from an design point of view. The driving band(s) of a projectile serve a purpose, what are the two things that they must do?
1. It/they must have reasonable sheer strength on the surface so that the rifling will have good purchase on the boolit and never strip.
2. it/they must be strong enough to stop up the gasses from cutting around the projectile, causing loss of accuracy.
I don't know of a plastic that can deliver either of these two, let alone both at the same time.

[I'll Make Mine]

Well, consider this from an design point of view. The driving band(s) of a projectile serve a purpose, what are the two things that they must do?
1. It/they must have reasonable sheer strength on the surface so that the rifling will have good purchase on the boolit and never strip.
2. it/they must be strong enough to stop up the gasses from cutting around the projectile, causing loss of accuracy.
I don't know of a plastic that can deliver either of these two, let alone both at the same time.

Given the plastic only has to do #2 for a couple milliseconds, and #1 can be greatly enhanced by the compression due to engraving the rifling, I think it's likely an aramid derivative (generic for Kevlar) could do the job. Aramid, as it exists, is already extremely heat resistant and chars rather than melting, is stronger by weight than steel (about as strong in cross section as pure aluminum, which we're routinely told is too hard to make good bullets), and fails non-catastrophically (one of the primary features that makes it useful for ballistic armor). Alloy the aramid with something similar to Nomex, and you'd have a self-lubricating, heat resistant, and very strong plastic that doesn't melt. Give it something to grip on the bullet (knurled cannelures, perhaps?) and I think it would work very well.

[MBTcustom]

Given the plastic only has to do #2 for a couple milliseconds, and #1 can be greatly enhanced by the compression due to engraving the rifling, I think it's likely an aramid derivative (generic for Kevlar) could do the job. Aramid, as it exists, is already extremely heat resistant and chars rather than melting, is stronger by weight than steel (about as strong in cross section as pure aluminum, which we're routinely told is too hard to make good bullets), and fails non-catastrophically (one of the primary features that makes it useful for ballistic armor). Alloy the aramid with something similar to Nomex, and you'd have a self-lubricating, heat resistant, and very strong plastic that doesn't melt. Give it something to grip on the bullet (knurled cannelures, perhaps?) and I think it would work very well.

Hmmm, you could be right. Don't you think that such a critter would erode your barrel after 10,000 rounds? I don't know.

[GerryM]

Yes thats right the military did use plastic cases in a 308 round. I had a few years ago. It never took off.
as for plastic jackets , it wasn't that long ago that plastic coated bullets { teflon i think were outlawed by the govenment.
They stated that that ammo would penetrate kevlar vests. Any one else remember something about that?

[MBTcustom]

I have absolutely no knowledge of what you speak of...

[DRNurse1]

Interesting line of thought here, gentlemen. When folks start talking about plastics and heat or pressure, I start to think about the toxins plastics release under pressure or heat. We already have a number of strange snd unusual odors and vapors around us when we are casting and shooting (I usually blame the dog or the burritos I ate for lunch, but this could be serious here).

So, how can we go about evaluating the new vapors and odors these new products would produce?

Another thought, once we can determine what would work and the odor/vapor safety of that substance, is how a home caster can attach this stuff to our boolits? Do we have the stuff laying around our shops or is this going to produce another industry (either is okay with me, I am all for some genius making their mark on history and an industry).

Last thought for this thread today would be clean up: what would the clean up/ clean out of our equipment/ barrels look like with this new loob?

Like I said...great thread, just looking for your insight on a couple of related things which may make or break this project.

[GerryM]

AKA cop killer bullets remember that claim? repressive government at it's finest.
I do think that its possble to make a jacket that would work from plastic. The problem I see is holding the core tight to the jacket.
Maybe some kind of glue for bonding the core to the jacket may be one answer. core seating with some kind of glue to hold it tight while it flies.
you don't want the core to sepeate. the bullet is spinning at a very rapid rate. in the many 1,000 of rpms

[I'll Make Mine]

Hmmm, you could be right. Don't you think that such a critter would erode your barrel after 10,000 rounds? I don't know.

I don't think so. Though aramid is stronger than steel, it's much more pliable, and with soft lead underneath, it should behave much like a paper patch in the rifling (which, BTW, don't burn and barely scorch on firing -- a data point on why plastic jackets should work fine).

[Chicken Thief]

You are overthinking this!
If plain copy paper is good for boolit jackets why not plastic?
Thin enough and it will transfer the rifling straight into the lead core.
In all fairness it is there solely as a friction reduction devise, no?

[Chicken Thief]

Sabots are good I saw a writeup somewhere with someone shooting .308 bullets out of a .357 magnum using sabots and had decent results.

I just would like to see something like this hit the market preferably in the .223 size range to begin with. Imagine .223 steelcore nylon jacket projectiles (55 grain) for something like $15 per K.. you'd maybe think about giving er a shot.

I do think you just described armor piercing bullets.
I dont know about US legality but in Denmark it is a big no-no.

[Echd]

Thank you! It was equally funny and interesting to read some first hand experiences. Do you happen to know, is product development still going on, or is the company totally out of the market?

A friend mentioned in passing to me that he saw plastic cased ammo from a vendor at SHOT show this year, but I do not know if it was that brand.

[nicholst55]

The U.S. Army is currently testing both a lightweight Light Machine Gun and Rifle in two versions; one utilizes standard brass case ammunition, the second uses a polymer case that actually surrounds the bullet. This eliminates one big problem of polymer cases - creating sufficient neck tension. I'm not sure if Big Army is ready to adopt polymer case ammo just yet, but the weight savings would be phenomenal if they do. You could literally field an LMG and basic load of ammo that weighs about half the weight of just a comparable LMG, without ammo!

The brass cartridge case is going to go the way of the Dodo bird before very much longer. Raw material prices have reached the point where they just will not be cost-effective in the very near future - kind of like copper wire in many applications, which has been replaced by steel. Whether the brass cartridge case will be replaced by steel, polymer, or some other product remains to be seen. It's going to make reloading or handloading an entirely new process, I have a feeling!

IIRC, some ammo manufacturers are already applying a "plastic" band around some of their bullets; there was a thread here recently talking about that very subject. Seems like the ammo in question was Remington Golden Saber. Here we go - I got the Remington part right, anyway: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...from-Remington

[Whiterabbit]

why not a paper jacket made from pulp slurry? you can compression mold it on, size down the line if needed, dries hard, and acts like a paper patch. Right?

[I'll Make Mine]

why not a paper jacket made from pulp slurry? you can compression mold it on, size down the line if needed, dries hard, and acts like a paper patch. Right?

From my reading in the Paper Patch forums, this has been tried a number of times, without notable success. Actual paper patches are easy to apply; the only advantages of a plastic patch/jacket are faster production (no need to let the patch dry after application) and ability to bond the jacket to the slug by injection molding into "lube" grooves.

[icebones762]

I dont know what type of plastic that was used for the driving bands on the 30mm but it sure wasn't pvc or the stuff tupperware bowls are made of. It felt sort of like the polymer they use to make glock frames out of but it was slightly softer. Ill get in touch with my friends that are still active duty and see if they can find anything in out T.O.s How hard would it be to make something that swages a copper or brass driving band on a projectile if plastic isnt viable? Maybe a modified gas check or something?

[icebones762]

Turns out this mystery plastic used for the driving bands on the 30mm is nothing more than high grade nylon.