.22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet?

[gnoahhh]

Start at 11 grains and work up. Have not run into pressure problems but look for your accuracy window. My guns are 12 and 14 twist and 11.5 to 12 grains work for me. Can't remember specific chrono results but these loads will do anything I ask of a Hornet, especially with my hollowpoints.

Thank you very much, but I'm looking to go in the opposite direction, with cast bullets. My favorite loads utilize 3½ grains Unique, 6 grains 2400 and the like, and I'm looking for alternative similar loads using AA1680.

[ballistim]

Have a #3 Ruger in K Hornet, and a Sav M40 (single shot bolt) in Hornet. Keep thinking about having the Sav K'd. Both shoot cast well with blts under 45 grain, and since 33 & 35 gr. jacketed came out, that is all I shoot in both of them. No problem getting 3000 and above with the little ones, and they are deadly on p-dogs out to 200 yds w/either Lil Gun or H110.
1Shirt!

I plan to have either a #3 or a #1 in either K or Hornet by the time I retire, still have 8 to 10 years to go, plenty of time to find one. Sunny calm days in the backyard with a Hornet has often gone through my mind when I envision how I'd like to spend time in retirement. I have a Contender bbl in .22 Hornet and it's been great with both Lil Gun & WC-680.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, gnoahhh. My go to powder for the Hornet has always been H4227 around 7.0grs. with a 52gr. Leeth copy of the old Ideal 22636 in both plain base & G.C. Several years back, I got on a cleanliness kick..wanted a powder with little or no fouling. Alliant had just brought out their American Select, advertized as ultra-clean burning. No data even from Alliant..so working up VERY slow and careful I think I was around 3grs or so. But even in that small case, those tiny charges seemed to get lost. The stuff was very sensitive..a tenth or so over and youd get patterns..extreemly quiet with recoil like a .22 rimfire..and it was extreemly clean. Lately I have found Vihtavouri N110 to give slightly better accuracy than H4227...but only with gas checked bullets..p.b. doesn't seem to do so well..I plan on exploring this combination some more to find out why. I have loaded my Hornet down with the early Lyman 225415 (49grs.) so that I could see the bullet dropping down onto target at 100yds. Sound and recoil like a .22 L.R...and very accurate. As far as accuracy is concerned, the greatest improvement I found was when I made up a tapered sizing die that fits a std. lubesizer. The taper matches chamber leade. In use, a bullet is placed nose first in die & lubesizer adjustment screw is used to adjust amount of taper on 1st. band. I seat bullets so as breech block closes, 1st. band is fully engraved by rifling. I'm getting groups like above with cast at 100yds. Best of luck!

[gnoahhh]

Thanks! I started seriously experimenting with cast bullets in the Hornet a couple years ago and have worked out a bunch of combos that satisfy me a lot, but I'm always keen to hear how other guys approach it. Those are a couple powders I never thought of trying.

A rifle that has given great satisfaction is a pre-war German stalking rifle in 5.6x35R, with a fast twist (1-9) and a bore that tapers from .227 down to .225. Once I sussed out what works in that strange little gun it became a beloved woods companion. I'm gearing up to build another custom single shot on a small Martini action with a fast-ish twist and absolutely minimum match chamber (so as to hopefully allow load work up at the shooting bench without the need to resize brass). Preference would be a LoWall or somesuch so as to allow easier breech seating too with plain base properly tapered bullets, but perhaps later...

[303Guy]

What do you hunt with the 60's? Do you have it suppressed?

I shot hares with it. I had been planing to hunt goats with it but figured that since fifty grain Sierra's killed them just fine, I would go with the much cheaper 55gr bullets available. They are also a bit faster for a flatter trajectory. The amazing thing for me was that the 16 twist would stabilize them. Initially I cut off the exposed tips to shorten them.

I was confident enough with that hornet that I would have taken a small deer with it but hornets are now banned for hunting so I can't even shoot goats with it. I'm thinking of going back to the 50gr Sierra's if they will shoot accurately enough. I'm wanting more speed than I can get with 55grs. If I can get my RCBS 55 FN mold to cast decent I want to shoot cast in it, mainly for target. That poor little hornet has been neglected for several years now.

[michaelcj]

Have not tried CB in my hornet, 1951 Winchester 43 [so rear lugs]. I load 12.8gr Lilgun in Winchester cases with small pistol primer behind a Sierra 45gr.. Half to three quarter groups all day long at 100, Inch and a half at 300. Using the Lee Collet Die for neck sizing my brass is showing no issues. Can't see any reason at all to re-chamber this old gun or go to the trouble of dies and fire forming.
I'll bet the K is a nice round… just "diminishing returns" for cost and effort.
Mike

[303Guy]

I load 12.8gr Lilgun in Winchester cases with small pistol primer behind a Sierra 45gr.. Half to three quarter groups all day long at 100, Inch and a half at 300.

Wow! That's what I like to hear. Mine has a rust damaged bore and an oversize and rough chamber. It does not copper foul since I lube my bullets - the bullet is seated in lube which holds it true. What kind of velocity can one get with faster powders that don't depend on neck tension and light bullets? I know that Lil'Gun will drive a 40gr bullet to well over 3000 fps but that needs neck tension, I think. Mind you, by the time sufficient Lil'Gun has been stuffed in the powder itself acts as a wad (it takes two compressions of the powder - fill to case mouth, compress then add some more and compress again!)

My Anschütz is a rear locking action. It's slicker than an Lee Enfield! I now wish it was the 222 model so I could hunt with it.

[dtraub215]

Has anyone on here ever loaded the Hornet or K- Hornet for sub-sonic velocities with any bullet? But I am particularly interested in heavy, high BC match bullets. Would they be too long even with a custom fast twist barrel. I am trying to put together a mid-range, 200-500 yard suppressed, highly accurate but economical to shoot rifle. I really love to arc bullets in to the target quietly.

Any insight on subsonic loads would be very much appreciated. I have been wondering about the .221 Fireball but don't know if case capacity is too high. A 6mm whisper is another thought. Thank you in advance.

[pertnear]

Nothing "sub-sonic" is going to consistently & accurately get you into 200-500 yd shooting.

The .22 Hornet is a wonderful cartridge & is one of the smallest reloadable cartridges. In today's world of expensive .22LR it has found new life! Converting this mighty-mite from regular to "K" will makes it a bit more mighty. If you like to tinker & enjoy wildcats - GO FOR IT! A simple conversion, but in reality, it is like putting elevator shoes on a midget!

JIMHO...

BTW: For quiet fun, I use to size & shoot pellets out of mine using just the primer.

[dtraub215]

How far do you think I could accurately shoot a subsonic .22/6mm/.308? On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I want something that doesn't get blown so much by the wind and holds sub-MOA elevation. So then I wouldn't have to wait for calm air to shoot quietly and accurately. I would like to think I could achieve 200 yard accuracy fairly easily.

Do you know if the heavy/long 75-90 grain bullets fit in the hornet case with enough room for a subsonic charge, or would a .221 fireball be better?

Thanks for the insight.

[1Shirt]

Have a Sav #40 Hornet, and a #3 Ruger in K-hornet. As said above, there is longer case life with a K. Am thinking of turning the Sav into a K for that reason, although, it shoots very well as a standard. 2400 with cast 45 gr and under. LilGun and or H110 with cast 45 and under. My longest kill with the K on pdogs was just a smidge over 225 yd, on a bright day with absolutely no wind, with 35 gr. Hor V-max. over 12 gr of H-110.
1Shirt

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't have a Hornet but always wanted one, maybe one day.

I do have to ask though ~ why does K Hornet brass last longer than regular Hornet brass if regular Hornet brass is only neck sized?

I can understand the brass stretching if you full length size and headspace on the rim but if only neck sized why wouldn't brass last longer?

I know the brass is long a tapered with slopey shoulder but once it is fire formed to the chamber then neck sized only I would have figured stretch would be minimized. No?

Longbow

The inside of the case head is forced backwards by the gas pressure. Now imagine a very tapered case like the Horner. There is actually forward force on that tapered surface, as well as outward expansion. The tendency is for the case wall to creep in the opposite direction from the head, and separation will soon occur at the very closely defined spot where it is being pulled both ways.

Now with most improved cases (the .300 Ackley Improved is the one I sectioned and measured), the widest spot inside the case body is the junction of shoulder and body. All of that body length is being stretched in the same direction, and only to the rather small limit headspace allows. Separation is a lot less likely.

I think getting quite the improvement in case life described on Page 1 is exceptional, and this depends a lot on other variables, such as the chamber texture, precise size etc. But there is no doubt that there is some, and this is the biggest advantage of the K-Hornet. If some brass, as also mentioned, prevents fireforming a commercial load from ordinary to K, I think that is also exceptional, and how often do we need to do that?

It can be argued that the advantages of the K-Hornet aren't great. But it is harder to argue that it has disadvantages.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

How far do you think I could accurately shoot a subsonic .22/6mm/.308? On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I want something that doesn't get blown so much by the wind and holds sub-MOA elevation. So then I wouldn't have to wait for calm air to shoot quietly and accurately. I would like to think I could achieve 200 yard accuracy fairly easily.

Do you know if the heavy/long 75-90 grain bullets fit in the hornet case with enough room for a subsonic charge, or would a .221 fireball be better?

Thanks for the insight.

A rifle couild be built to do this. But I don't believe any commercially available Hornet rifle has a rifling twist fast enough to stabilize bullets much over 45gr. I wouldn't like to count on 50gr. There is also the point that purpose-built Hornet bullets were generally .223 in. I doubt if the extra thou will make much difference, and it seems even less likely that sizing .224 down that much will. But it is all some extra trouble in search of really good accuracy.

[dtraub215]

A fast twist barrel would be the first modification to the rifle. I am thinking 1in6 or less. It is going to be a custom build, hopefully on a Browning A-bolt II .22 Hornet. I just ordered Quickload, hopefully that will help me get an idea of what is possible for subsonic loads of all calibers in question. Thank you for your help. I still dont know if the Hornet will even hold an 80-90 grain bullet?

[gnoahhh]

It'll hold such a long bullet- but I would consider having the throat lengthened to accommodate it. (But then it would be crummy throat for "regular" bullet use.) It is an interesting concept. Have you applied the Greenhill Formula to determine the twist rate for a 90gr. subsonic cast lead .22 bullet?

[M-Tecs]

On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I.

That is some impressive shooting.

221 Fireball brass will handle the pressure better.

Some discussion here http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-151619.html

I would do the 300 Whisper/blackout for subsonic range http://www.300whisper.com/subsonic.html

6mm or 6.5 mmWhisper would be an option. http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/sskwhisper.html

[303Guy]

Actually, the 1 in 16 twist hornet will stabilize a 60gr Hornady spire point. Even 55gr Nosler semi boat tails. As for case life, I get indefinite case life loading 13.7gr Lil'Gun under a 55gr spitzer. I wouldn't suggest loading that high though. I lube the cases - that's the trick. Slightly slippery is what's needed using STP Smoke Stopper. The amount of lube would be about what I would use for case sizing. That's to prevent case wall to chamber grip. Too much lube makes dents in the case and besides, one doesn't want atomized oil mixing with the burning powder - who knows what it will do to pressure and burn rate. Probably shoot pressure sky high.

Loading is quite a procedure but worth it for the accuracy and range and long case life. For normal loading I would still lube the cases but I would reduce the charge some and probably use lighter bullets. I'm not sure of the lower stability limit with 55grs. I should test it to see. They're cheaper!

[dtraub215]

Thank you everyone for your insights, they have been very helpful.

I am undecided on whether to do the regular Hornet or the K-Hornet for my subsonic applications. Would one hold the longer bullets better than the other? Also, who do you think makes the best, most accurate molds for heavy .224 cal. bullets? Thank you guys again, all help is very much appreciated.

[dtraub215]

[[QUOTE=M-Tecs;3155105]That is some impressive shooting.

221 Fireball brass will handle the pressure better. ]]

Thank you, I am hoping to be able to do that on a windy day with this build.

When you say the 221 fireball will handle the pressure better, I must say that with subsonics I wouldnt think pressures would be a problem in a Hornet. Am I wrong, would the longer bullets and fast twist create higher pressures than standard Hornet loads. Do you think the 221 fireball can be consistently loaded subsonicly with heavy bullets? Thank you for the help.

[303Guy]

I would hazard a guess and say the larger case for subsonics and heavy bullets would be a better option because the desired velocity can be achieved with lower pressure. Then again the choice of powders would change. I might even look toward the 222 Remington for its long neck although they only came in 1 in 14 twists but when you have a choice of twist rates it might be an option for longer bullets. Its top end is not too shabby either but is not relevant here.