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Thread: Trouble reloading Norma brass

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy yman's Avatar
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    Trouble reloading Norma brass

    I purchased a 6mm rem rifle awhile back and just getting around to messing with it. My friend that built it has passed away so I have no reference. He sold me the rifle and about 200 rds of Norma brass with a set of old lyman AA deluxe 6mm dies. When I went to size the stuff I can only run about 4 or 5 thru b/4 the expander plug gets so tite I am afraid to try another one. If I take the expander plug out and clean it I can do another 4 or 5. I had some Hornady brass on hand so I tried that, I could run about 10 thru b/4 it started seizing up. I tried a little case lube on the case mouth and then on the expander plug and this only seemed to make it worse. I removed the expander stem from the die and tried running the brass thru without it and they worked just fine. I then got my rcbs 243 dies out, screwed the expander plug waaaaay down and deprimed and expanded then sized them with the lyman die. This seemed to work ok. So I am trying to figure out if the problem is the Norma brass or the lyman dies. Best as I can measure the expander plug in the lyman is same as the plug in the rcbs, although the lyman plug is a big long 1 and the rcbs is just a little short 1. I hate to chuck the dies or the brass, I always heard Norma brass was top notch stuff and they do not make it in 6mm Rem any more. What do you all think, is the brass or the dies??

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Oh, where to start. How much is the die sizing down the neck. Can you measure before and after sizing without the expander? How many times has the brass been fired, are the necks hard and need to be annealed? Do you clean the inside of the necks before sizing? How much did the case lube help? Try giving each of the necks are scrub with a bore brush? I use graphite on the inside of the necks and it helps.

    Tim
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  3. #3
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    mmhmm I'd measure a sized case without the expander ball.
    and see just how much you are trying to size those necks back up with the ball in place.
    you may need to polish the neck portion of the die out.

    I use a bore mop that I put lube on and stick it down inside every case I re-size.
    it gets the lube down at the bottom of the neck where it makes contact with the ball sizer and makes pulling the case over it about 1 million times easier.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    As stated. Polish the expander and clean then lube inside the the neck. I use a q-tip after dipping in a mix of Lee case lube mixed with alcohol.
    "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" Looking for an RCBS Ammomaster and H&R shotgun barrels regardless of condition

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy yman's Avatar
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    I did try cleaning the inside of the case necks with a bronze brush, but it didn't seem to help much. I was afraid to put to much case lube down the neck as I figured it would contaminate the powder. I assume I need to wash them with hot soapy water afterwards? I don't know how many times the brass has been reloaded, but I do remember him talking about annealing cases buy standing them in a pan of water and heating them with a torch until red and then tipping them over, but that was 22 hornet cases. I am running on a limited budget here and would like to a save the brass if I can.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy yman's Avatar
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    Also, how do I polish the expander ball?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I wouldn't use case sizing lube on inside of case necks, use either Mica, Graphite, or dry moly, although some of this stuff is messy, the dry lubes won't contaminate the powder.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Get you an old prescription medicine container, fill it with shot, and put in a half teaspoon or so powered graphite. When you need to lube case necks shake up the bottle, take off the cover, dip your cases in the shot, and enjoy. Replace the top when done!
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Measure the OD of your sized/expanded Norma necks compared to the Hornady. Even more accurate, seat a bullet in each headstamp, and measure the OD of the neck. I expect the Norma necks are thicker.

    Hence, when sized, the ID of the Norma necks is smaller. The expander ball has more work to do on the way out.

    There's also the issue of being new brass, which is stickier. But you already found out that lube doesn't solve the issue, so you already took care of that.
    Best as I can measure the expander plug in the lyman is same as the plug in the rcbs, although the lyman plug is a big long 1 and the rcbs is just a little short 1
    Ok, this does make a difference when the necks start getting tight. Bear with me. When you pull an expander out of a tight case neck, it stretches the brass. The case is being "racked" between the shellholder and the expander ball. This causes the case neck underneath the expander ball to stretch longer and THINNER in diameter, bearing down on the expander ball like a Chinese finger trap. The harder you pull, the tighter the neck clamps on the ball. Once you cross beyond a certain point, no amount of case neck lube will completely solve this problem. (Your die sounds like it's right on the edge of working fine, though.) The lyman plug works better because it is longer. The case neck immediately below the area of expanding is plugged at full diameter, so there's less of the case neck available to be subjected to this stretching effect.

    The neck in your 6mm die might be a little tight, and you might want to hone it out a bit, keeping in mind that some brass is thinner than others, and you want it to remain small enough to work on your thinner necked brass.

    The easy solution is to use a Lyman M die for expanding. You replace your 6mm decapping/expander pin with a universal decapping pin or a 223 pin. Then you expand in a separate step with the Lyman M die. I do this with all my rifle cases. (Even though most don't need it; I load cast in all my calibers, so in those cases I do it for the flare). Push thru expanding doesn't have the same issue in tight necks as the pull thru balls. There's no case neck stretching, and there's no need for any lube (unless you are using new or squeaky clean wet-tumbled brass).

    I have been there, done that. I have a Hornady rifle sizing die that is super tight in the neck, and the Lyman M die is a must. It's completely effortless, no lube in my case necks, and the case necks/shoulders don't get stretched and distorted and overworked.
    Last edited by gloob; 05-03-2015 at 08:18 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy yman's Avatar
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    Gloob, interesting reading on how the expander ball works, sounds like your right on because the further down I pull the tighter it gets. I may try the dry stuff, I have some graphite the medicine bottle trick sounds like the mother on invention,lol. If that does not work I will look into the M die, or I may just have to buy a new set of dies, I wouldn't mind having a neck size only as I only have the 1 gun in 6mm. But wow, I got sticker shock at the price, I know $200 for you true blue bench rest shooters is all ok, but I cant even think about that. I am kinda excited to see what the ol gun will do. It shot 1/2in groups at 100yard with some custom hornedy stuff. I hope I can reload some stuff that will do that well. Thanks for all the imput, I will see how it comes out.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master 1johnlb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yman View Post
    Also, how do I polish the expander ball?
    Chuck your expander in the drill and use 0000 steel wool to smooth out any rough places on the expander ball. Hold the steel wool on the expander while spinning it in the drill.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master



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    I noticed that you mentioned the Lyman die has a long expander ball. That extra surface area is going to drag more on the inside of the neck and would explain why the shorter RCBS expander is easier to use. If that proves to be the case, just purchase a .243 expander from RCBS and install it in the Lyman die.

  13. #13
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    Make sure the expander isnt set to high, if it is in the neck portion of the die it can pinch the brass between die and expander creating alot of tension. A die sizes smaller than needed and the expander opens up to size needed if expander is in the neck portion there is no clearence to llow neck to expand out.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy yman's Avatar
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    I already tried putting the rcbs expander ball in the lyman die, didn't work, threads were different. But I agree the longer expander ball is causing more drag.
    I always set my expander plug almost to the bottom of the die so the pin cleanly knocks out the old primer. I am not sure why anyone would have is high in the die, maybe I am missing something, but I sure understand what your saying there county gent, I can see what you talking about would cause a problem.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Oh, I must have misunderstood. I took it that the longer Lyman expander worked better/easier than the shorter RCBS. Then I went back and re-read the OP and am even more confused. If I'm reading this correctly, you expanded the unsized cases, first, then sized them after. So your necks would not be expanded, at all.

    I removed the expander stem from the die and tried running the brass thru without it and they worked just fine. I then got my rcbs 243 dies out, screwed the expander plug waaaaay down and deprimed and expanded then sized them with the lyman die [with the expander ball removed?]. This seemed to work ok.
    Try seating a flat base bullet, and you may find there's a problem.

    Because of variation in case neck thickness and springiness, sizing can't leave the ID of the neck to an exact size. That's the reason why the expander is necessary, at all, and why it has to be done after sizing. The game is to size the necks slightly too small, intentionally, (sizing die working on the OD, plus varying by springback x 2) so that they can be expanded back to a more consistent ID (expander plug operating on ID, directly, plus any springback cancels itself out in this direction). And it sounds like your die is sizing the necks a bit TOO small, on top of that. I don't think you'll be able to seat bullets in unexpanded necks.
    Last edited by gloob; 05-04-2015 at 05:26 PM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Lyman All American dies are good dies and Norma is good brass. It is impossible to diagnose your issues with the few words we have here. I seriously doubt the problem is with the dies or the brass, but the operator.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    If you have never experienced this issue and thought it through, you may not understand what is going on. But it is easily diagnosable from the info given. Already done. I'm sorry if that sounds cocky and arrogant. Runfiverun nailed it on the second reply, already. I added an additional option and further explanation.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Lyman dies tend to squeeze cases down more than most other brands. So expanding the necks may take more force.

    Polish the expander a little to remove the tool marks. Most Lyman expanders are ground so it is easy to polish them with 400 grit wet or dry paper used wet.
    Spin the expander in a electric drill. Polish about 1 to 2 minutes.

    When you size the cases, lube the necks with case lube on a nylon case neck brush.

    Then clean the case necks with a piece of old T shirt wrapped on an old bore brush or nylon brush. Then rinse in 90% isopropyl alcohol to remove any residual lube.

    Then let the cases dry - the alcohol will evaporate faster than water.

    Then prime with a hand tool.

    If your dies do not behave you have to modify your loading process sometimes.
    Last edited by EDG; 05-04-2015 at 10:47 PM.
    EDG

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    It is quite easy to push an oversize expander through the neck of a case, such as when turning a 243 case into a 7mm-08 case. You can just push the ball right through with a little lube, and tada, you have a necked up case. No real effort.

    OTOH, if you were to take a 243 die with a screw-on expander ball, and screw a 7mm expander ball onto the stem thru the bottom of the die, then run a 7mm-08 case through the die, you'd have a hell of a time getting the ball back out. If you and your press had the strength, and if you lubed it up enough, the ball might come back out. But the case would be mangled.

    Pull thru expanding has a relatively narrow range where it works, properly. It's a compromise of convenience, and it doesn't always work, particularly where your case necks have a big variation in thickness. Push through expanding will work without issue in cases where pull thru expanders can not.

    In this case, OP might get by with trying different lubes. In some cases, you can open up the neck of the die. But you can only open up the neck of a die so much before it can no longer size thin-necked headstamps. So if you have a very large variation in case neck thickness, you may need to either use a push thru expander or turn necks or sort and segregate brass and/or use a neck-sizing die. This why I was curious about OP's measurements of neck brass thickness between Norma and Hornady.
    Last edited by gloob; 05-05-2015 at 01:11 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    It makes no difference if you are pulling or pushing. What does matter is the location of the press linkage when the maximum force is required.

    If the press linkage and ram is nearly full up so that the mechanical advantge of the press is at maximum it is easy. That is why having an elevated expander works so well. That is also why you cannot feel much force when expanding at the very top of the upstroke. You are basically using a press designed for FL sizing just to expand a neck a few thousandths.
    EDG

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GC Gas Check