Need bullet suggestion for project build

[RWE]

1st post here, so to all, a hearty hello.

I realize this is the projects section, but the root of this thread is a project gun in need of a bullet.

A while ago I got it in my head I needed a SxS rifle and had worked on a materials acquired basis on a 30-30. However, pressures developed by the round caused primer flow issues into the shotgun action, and my attempts to alleviate this using hand tools and uncanny American savvy fell short, so I shelved it.

So, I went to work on number 2, a Colt 45 SxS. That project is nearing completion, while I await the sizing die to load up some SAA's for regulation. The goal there is to use Trailboss loads to push the 280gr WW cast sledgehammers out the barrel to kill stuff - Carolina whitetails and maybe a hog or two.

But while I was waiting, I refit the 30-30 barrels to the new action, and am looking for input on a low pressure load that can also seal the deal on game.

And was told this was the place.

SO, with these constraints, has anyone a suggestion on what bullet I can use, and a load for the 30-30?

1) Low pressure - sub 20K, prefer sub 16K.
2) kills deer at a minimum, maybe used on hogs.
3) cast bullet - prefer no gas checks
4) 12 twist barrels.
5) prefer using trailboss
6) 100yds max range.

ultimately would like to get the package to be reloaded using old lee loaders, i.e. to have a kit with powder, brass, bullets, primers, etc in a man-purse thingy. Hence, 1 powder for both would be skookum.

I have seen some 32 cal pistol bullets, 98gr SWC and 115gr FN's that look tasty and could be sized down enough, but wonder if they would be too light.

I'm a novice caster, in fact the 45 Colt project was my first exposure, so try to keep things simple OR well detailed for the novice.

Thanks in advance.

[justashooter]

your double shotgun base is capable of shooting loads with 15KSI, over a large base diameter. when you switch to a smaller rifle cartridge base diameter you can push the pressures up.

do the math:

use pi r squared for base area, multiply actual base area by 15KSI for resultant bolt thrust,
then calculate actual base area of your rifle case and divide it into the resultant bolt thrust for acceptable cartridge pressure.
you will find that you can run up to near standard 30-30 pressures in a 12 gauge lockup.

[RWE]

your double shotgun base is capable of shooting loads with 15KSI, over a large base diameter. when you switch to a smaller rifle cartridge base diameter you can push the pressures up.

do the math:

use pi r squared for base area, multiply actual base area by 15KSI for resultant bolt thrust,
then calculate actual base area of your rifle case and divide it into the resultant bolt thrust for acceptable cartridge pressure.
you will find that you can run up to near standard 30-30 pressures in a 12 gauge lockup.

Not concerned too much about the action (its a 16gauge frame), its primer flow back into the larger shotgun sized firing pin holes that is the problem.

45 Colt rounds at standard pressure will not back flow.

30-30 rounds at standard will.

Although, I have beefed up the V-springs since my first 30-30 tests, so I may load some progressive youth loads with 150 J-bullets, just to see how much she will go before the primers start to back flow.

It's a safety issue more than just the inconvenience of trying to open the action with the primers kind of "locking it in"

Eventually, one of those backflowing primers are going to rupture.

[StrawHat]

Are you bushing the firing pin to a smaller diameter?

[RWE]

I had made one attempt at bushing the strikers similar to the method used in the book, Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions, but it was a little more than what I could do with hand tools.

And yes, aside from attaching the barrels to the monoblock, all the rest of the fitting, shaping, etc have been done by hand. Radii on the ribs, fore end hooks, and working on front sights now, all with hand tools.

The octagonal barrels on the 45 build were done by hand, and that took a while. But I have a good collection of files.

The action that I attempted the bushing on has been shelved for now, and I've come up with some solutions I should be able to complete by hand, but at that point, I plan on something will a little more guts.

My hope is that this project will be feasible for use with the lower pressures and mil-spec primers which should alleviate primer rupture and flow problems.

ETA: I'm not opposed to the resignation that the 30-30 part may not be feasible. I put a lot of consideration into the factors involved and have noted that pressures in the +30K range are not acceptable for this, and pressures at 20K seem to be working ok. So if it can be made to work, than great. If not, then I still have the 45 that will make this project a success.

If the consensus that an adequate 50-100 yd deer round cannot be obtained within the limitations set, than that's life. I'm not hellbent on it. Just want to feed on the experience of those that have been there/done that. Real life experience - even someone elses, trumps conjecture at any level.

[badgeredd]

I had made one attempt at bushing the strikers similar to the method used in the book, Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions, but it was a little more than what I could do with hand tools.

And yes, aside from attaching the barrels to the monoblock, all the rest of the fitting, shaping, etc have been done by hand. Radii on the ribs, fore end hooks, and working on front sights now, all with hand tools.

The octagonal barrels on the 45 build were done by hand, and that took a while. But I have a good collection of files.

The action that I attempted the bushing on has been shelved for now, and I've come up with some solutions I should be able to complete by hand, but at that point, I plan on something will a little more guts.

My hope is that this project will be feasible for use with the lower pressures and mil-spec primers which should alleviate primer rupture and flow problems.

ETA: I'm not opposed to the resignation that the 30-30 part may not be feasible. I put a lot of consideration into the factors involved and have noted that pressures in the +30K range are not acceptable for this, and pressures at 20K seem to be working ok. So if it can be made to work, than great. If not, then I still have the 45 that will make this project a success.

If the consensus that an adequate 50-100 yd deer round cannot be obtained within the limitations set, than that's life. I'm not hellbent on it. Just want to feed on the experience of those that have been there/done that. Real life experience - even someone elses, trumps conjecture at any level.

First. let me say you have a good looking project underway.

Now for a bit of my opinion. Unless you bush the firing pins and reduce their diameter to somewhere near .060" I see no way you'll eliminate the primer flow in reasonable hunting loads. A second problem I have run into is with a firing pin that rebounds away from the cartridge, thus leaving the unsupported primer dent behind. I ran into this problem with rather anemic loads on a shotgun turned light rifle. In my opinion, you may never remove the problem with 30-30 loads that are adequate for even 50 yard shots on deer.

I am confused as to why you aren't having the same problem with the 45 Colts loads unless they are adequately lower pressure. Because of the sheer mass of the bullet, I believe the 45 Colt would be your best choice of the 2 you mentioned.

I don't see this firearm as adequate for hogs, but that is ONLY my opinion. It isn't my intent to be critical of your project, but only to give you my opinion as to the feasibility of your quest.

BTW, I have often thought of building a double rifle, but decided I needed a better action than I currently have in my possession.

Edd

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

[RWE]

It isn't my intent to be critical of your project, but only to give you my opinion as to the feasibility of your quest.

I'm not that thinned skinned. I welcome critique; it beats the heck out of trial and error.

BTW, I have often thought of building a double rifle, but decided I needed a better action than I currently have in my possession.

Zastava Model 75 16 gauges. The ones with the breech fastener. They are built like a tank and are relatively easy to work on - once the trial and error are out of the way.

I can't explain the lack of flow on the 45. But as of yet, the test loads have revealed no issues.

I was hoping mostly to get the gun up and running by November, just to use. So lacking a realistic way to get the 30-30 working, I may concentrate on the 45, and then bush the strikers after season is over.

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

Thanks!

[badgeredd]

RWE,

Thanks for the suggestion on the action. I'll keep an eye open for one I can afford.

I honestly think working out the 45 Colt will be your best track. I'm thinking it is perfectly capable of becoming a good deer gun. Bushing the firing pins after you get things going makes perfect sense considering your goals.

Edd

[RWE]

The shotguns are Serbian imports, and there's no telling who is bringing them in these days.

I got three about 3-4 years ago, back when I had money, and the guns went for $200ish, and one action/forearm only went for $150. That one had to have the monobloc made from a chunk of steel as opposed to just cutting off barrels and threading..

One of the shotguns did not have the breech fastener - so I actually use it as a 16 gauge shotgun.

Just double check that blind fastener if you come upon one.


3Cricks eh?

I'm originally from the city of Four Flags, a wee bit west-southwest of you.

[badgeredd]

"I'm originally from the city of Four Flags, a wee bit west-southwest of you. "

Small world, huh?

Edd

[RWE]

It's a safety issue more than just the inconvenience of trying to open the action with the primers kind of "locking it in"

Eventually, one of those backflowing primers are going to rupture.

Anyone considering the shotgun action conversion let me point out 2 things.

A 45 COLT 280 gr SAA will come out at 1,100 fps and cause wonderful damage to test media. Calculated pressure at 16K and life is good.

HOWEVER, FOR THE 30-30, 173gr cast FN using 10gr unique has a calculated velocity at 1470 and pressure at 30K. The chrony read 1472, and the stock wrist splitting from the primer rupture says that 30K is too damn high for rifle primers over an unbushed firing pin hole.

The action is still OK, and the wrist split is minimal - but it could have been worse. Thank God for lead sleds, safety glasses and whatever else He gave me today.

Save any criticism, please. I just want folks to know before they jump.

[I'll Make Mine]

One potential suggestion: convert your .30-30 cases to use shotgun primers; that'll solve the firing pin size issue, and substitute one of a primer not made for pressures above nominal 15K. However, from my reading, folks who've converted to 209 primers in other rifle cases have found them to hold up well at pressures well above that nominal figure.

With a suitable small charge of fast powder (Unique, 2400, etc.), you should be able to get a 90 to 120 grain boolit up to 1500 from a .30-30 case; you should be able to keep peak pressures under 20k, and as a bonus, the fast powder will be fully burned and pressure dropping before the boolit exits the bore, making for a relatively quiet load. I'd be pretty confident of a well place 120 grain at 1500 taking down a whitetail within 100 yards; that's comparable energy to a .357 Magnum revolver with maximum loads, which is definitely capable of doing the job.

[blaster]

Maybe try CCI #34 primers in the 30-30? They have a harder/thicker primer cup.