Belgian 9 mm Nagant questions

[Dino Germano]

1. Anyone EVER reload this one?
2. What case can be uset to form from?
3. What boolit?

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

Looks like the alternate designation is 9x22r Belgian (to distinguish from 9x22r Japanese, which apparently isn't the same) -- rimmed case, with some taper, based on one photo of a loaded cartridge I found. The rim looks thinner than .38 Special; you might be able to convert a .38 S&W case by using .223 full length dies to size the brass (I'd have to try it and measure the case mouth diameter to be sure). The .38 S&W case is about .090" shorter than the 9x22r, but that shouldn't cause a lot of trouble. Based on the cartridge photo, it's probably a 140-160 grain bullet (they were originally sold in either plain lead or paper patch, surely black powder given the 1877 origin of the revolver) and ballistics are likely very similar to the Webley .380 Mk. 1 (which case interchanged with the .38 S&W, though the loadings didn't).

Slug your bore to get the boolit diameter, and then find a mold that gives a reasonable weight -- and don't forget to use BP lube instead of smokeless powder lube...

[Dino Germano]

Thanks, A .357 case is way too loose to use, the rim fits in the chamber about 1/8". I don't have a .41 mag case to try, but I will try one next.

Dino in Reno

[Dino Germano]

Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner! A 30-30 case is just a nudge too big, it is a "Tap with a knuckle" fit for the chamber. Now to slug the barrel and trim and ream a few cases...

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

A 30-30 case is just a nudge too big, it is a "Tap with a knuckle" fit for the chamber.

Those are going to be pretty thick where you have to trim them for length; you'll have to ream them, and they'll have an internal shoulder like a .45 ACP made from .30-06 brass. You'll also probably find them a little tight to extract if they're a "knuckle tap" fit with a sized case (if it's a fired case that's doing that, full-length resizing may solve the problem). The .219 Zipper uses the same head, and has a sharper taper; this might fit the 9 mm Belgian Nagant chamber better (or it might not, the question is where the .30-30 case is hanging: head or body).

I'd suggest taking a chamber cast so you can measure the actual taper before deciding what dies you need (even if the .30-30 fits properly -- drop in -- after sizing, you'll still need something to flare the case, seat the bullet and take out the flare or crimp).

Based on apparent diameter and length, you'll probably be able to fit up to around eighteen grains of black powder in those cases, though you may want to reduce that by a third and fill the empty space with Cream of Wheat or similar -- you'll still get a good bang, but be easier on that 135 year old frame...

[Dino Germano]

Thank's for the help!
A bit of a setback. A 32-40 case feels a bit loose... So a chamber cast will be done.
The chamber is .436 or so at the base as best as I can tell. (a garage sale Helos mic)
And yes, mid range B.P. with a cast boolit

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

One you might look at is .38-55 as a starter case, though I don't know that that'll be any better than a .30-30 in terms of brass thickness. With a .436 head, a .41 Mag should be a near perfect starter case (.434 head, .492 rim diameter at .060 thick), and will be quite a bit thinner at your 22 mm trim length than a .30-30 case would be (likely won't require either reaming or turning).

Make sure your chamber cast includes the throat, since that's the primary determinant of boolit size for revolvers (the barrel groove size should be a little smaller than the throat, ideally). Hopefully, it'll turn out to be something you can drop and size from a regular .38/.357 mold -- the original was a classic lead round nose, and pretty much every manufacturer makes a round nose mold that throws 148 grains with soft alloy (I'd go 20:1 or 30:1 lead/tin, no antimony, if you have a choice, or wheel weights cut with two parts pure lead if that's the alloying choice you have).

Should be a kick to shoot, do keep us (me) posted...

Edit: Hmmm, my reference page was down earlier; it's back up now, and the .219 Zipper size die won't be much help; the taper looks about right, but the head is close to .014 too small -- you'd be swaging the .41 Mag brass small enough to rattle in the chamber, if you can even get the .41 Mag case to start into the Zipper die. I don't see anything with the right head size and approximately correct taper (though I can't claim a completely exhaustive search); you might have to use the chamber as a sizer (cylinder removed from the revolver to avoid frame and ejector damage) for a .41 Mag case trimmed to the correct length, then use a .38 Special die to size a half inch or so of the mouth to hold the bullet, improvise something to seat/crimp (a .38 S&W seat/crimp die might work -- shorter than .38 Special -- or a .38 Special seating die with the adjustment stud extended and the sizing die to take out the flare), fire form, and then send fired case(s) to a custom die maker. Not cheap, but you'll then be (it seems) the only person in North American loading for 9mm Belgian Nagant.

[Dino Germano]

Thanks again. Loading might be even more fun, some original loads were paper patched.
The darn thing was just so odd but well built I could not pass.
I'll get some .41 mag brass to look at.

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

Lots of good information on paper patching black powder rounds available on the next forum above this one, and folks who'd probably be tickled pink to hear someone planning to load with Holy Black for that old piece. No reason to start with that, though; good likelihood you can start with whatever you'd cast for a .38 Special (though you may have to size differently than you're used to).

[Dino Germano]

This will be a winter project.
Lots of learning to be made
Thanks again,

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

Aha!! More information...

My mind doesn't let loose of things that get classified as "puzzle" or "enigma" easily. I found a page that gives fairly full dimensions for the 9mm Belgian Nagant cartridge. Summary: Rim diameter .480, smaller than .41 Mag (but .41 Mag brass could be turned); head .420, barely smaller than .30-30 or .219 Zipper (so it looks as if .219 Z sizing dies could be used, after all, if you can get the trimmed .41 Mag case mouth reduced enough to start in the sizer); case length .898, neck diameter .390 (which goes with the kicker): bullet diameter .373.

Looks like you'll need to cast in a .375 mold and size down, but probably won't need exotic dies (flare case with a Lyman M die appropriate for .375, and a shortened .375 seat/crimp die should cover the last stage).

[Dino Germano]

Wonderful! added to my bookmarks, and will make this easier.
Yet more thanks

Dino in Reno

[I'll Make Mine]

Looking forward to a range report...

[Dino Germano]

I will post any and all progress.

Dino in Reno

[JMtoolman]

You could use 36 cal. round ball- .375 for the cap and ball pistols. Run them through a sizer and thumb seat them in the case mouth. Then wipe a bit of lube on them and shoot! I think I have a double cavity mold around here somewhere that hasn't been used in years.
The toolman.

[RetE8USN]

I just stubled across this thread looking for information on the 9mm Belgian Nagant round. Lot of good information on using different cases. Dino, what type of success did you have? What case did you end up using? Case length, bullet and OAL?