To those who build muzzleloaders

[newton]

I got a question. I have a lot of projects on my plate, but this is just a question.

Several years back I got my first muzzleloader on a trade. I did not know anything about them but did like to shoot. It was a CVA bobcat. Needless to say I let the thing rust up, and we all know what muzzleloaders can look like when neglected.

Being new, I was afraid that the rust had ate through too much metal (lol) and was unsafe to fire. I really wanted to look inside just to ease my mind so I proceeded to 'try' and unscrew the breech plug. Yea, big laughs.

Well I twisted the tang off. So I brought it into work one day to let another guy who knows guns look at it. He said, in no uncertain terms, that I was an idiot and the gun would have been fine to shoot once it had been cleaned.

But what was done was done and there was no going back. So, I cut the breech end off and thought it would be neat to have a short woods gun. So I cut the barrel from the muzzle back about 18". Then I tapped the barrel, but I do not remember the size. I then fashioned a breech plug to fit so that the flash channel screwed into it and locked the breech plug in place. Same way that it was made to begin with.

As far as the metal goes, the breech plug is probably not the hardest steel there is. But it is a very precise fit believe it or not. I think there is 1 1/2" of threads contacting inside the barrel. The flash channel was made out of a piece of stainless I believe, and is threaded into the barrel and breech plug. It is concaved on one side so that once in place and the nipple in the correct angle the flash is directed toward the muzzle end.

I do not have pictures, but I more or less made it just like the original way CVA did theirs. Just not with the same metals.

So here is my question. I have yet to fire this thing. And will only do so at a safe distance with a string. What is the chances of this thing being a complete failure? I have heard, and seen, guys take 1/2" black iron and make "muzzleloaders" from them. But I want to be safe.

My plan was to limit the gun, seeing how it only had an 18" barrel anyways, to 50 grains of powder. I was only going to only use round balls also. But my next question is if you think that it would be safe to shoot the 320 grain REAL's out of it?

I'll take some pictures tonight. It really is put together just like CVA had it originally, all except for the metal used for the breech plug. And the fact that the 'breech end' is now halfway up the barrel. I did not know if that made a difference either, if the barrel was treated at the breech end or anything.

I am NOT at anytime in the future trying to get into building these guns. However, I did re-build this one and would love to shoot it but have some obvious reservations. I would just like to get some feed back from those who have built them before.

Thanks.

[reivertom]

If I am unsure about a barrel, like on an old ML shotgun, I load it with a double load and extra heavy shot. I then tie it to an old tire and fire it with a cannon fuse at a safe distance. With your gun , you could just double charge, and double patched ball (one on top of the other tamped down tight) and tie it to a tire also. Because you don't have to worry about splitting an old wood stock, just leave it together and fire it with a string at a safe distance. I'm not giving any sure advice that this is fool proof, but I'm just telling you this is what I do. I fugure the most common dangerous mistake we could make firing a ML rifle, is a double charge behind one ball. I just do two balls to raise the pressure a bit more in a worst case senario. Just as with any gun you are unsure of, it might be better to let an expierienced ML gunsmith to look at it first.

[newton]

If I am unsure about a barrel, like on an old ML shotgun, I load it with a double load and extra heavy shot. I then tie it to an old tire and fire it with a cannon fuse at a safe distance. With your gun , you could just double charge, and double patched ball (one on top of the other tamped down tight) and tie it to a tire also. Because you don't have to worry about splitting an old wood stock, just leave it together and fire it with a string at a safe distance. I'm not giving any sure advice that this is fool proof, but I'm just telling you this is what I do. I fugure the most common dangerous mistake we could make firing a ML rifle, is a double charge behind one ball. I just do two balls to raise the pressure a bit more in a worst case senario. Just as with any gun you are unsure of, it might be better to let an expierienced ML gunsmith to look at it first.

Well, I guess that is one way of proofing a gun. lol.

I know the barrel is good as long as its not supposed to be different at one end or another. It really just boils down to the breech plug for the most part. And really, unless I am missing something, the boolit or ball is going to be the weak point in the whole equation and is what will give first, therefore 'shooting' instead of exploding the barrel.

But there could always be something I am not thinking about here as far as the set up is concerned. I will take pictures of it tonight so that it can be assessed a little better.

Thanks for the idea though

[colonelhogan44]

The barrel steel on my Hawken is dead soft. I'd just shoot it.

[mooman76]

I'd do pretty much what Reivertom says to do so you will be sure it will hold up to a heavy charge. You don't have to go as heavy as he says but that way you will be sure. I'd do at least 150% over minumum or just double charge it.

[Omnivore]

Talking to one of the guys at a ML parts supplier, he told me, and I've heard this elsewhere, that a charge of powder equaling twice the "maximum" charge is the "standard" proof test. That did not include using a double ball.

For my build project, which I will also say has a relatively soft 11xx barrel steel, I charged the ball twist barrel with 150 grains of 2F and a 350 grain conical. Kaboom. No problem.

Back in the 1700s, the thread depth used in the breech was sometimes shockingly short. The "repro" locks we use today are usually altered to accommodate a longer breech thread, AND the steels we use are far superior to the stuff they had. O'course it is from that period that the term "backfire" arose.

Unless you did something really, really wrong, in fitting that plug, I wouldn't have a worry. Just do a reasonable proof and have fun.

What's the worst that can happen anyway? So you lose a hand, or an eye or two, or a little bit of your skull and an ear... It could be worse. (sorry - just kidding. I'm in a mood)

[StrawHat]

I always wonder about the "old tire test". The angle of the barrel when supported by that tire should lauch the boolit(s) into the next county. Make sure of your backstop.

Your breeching sounds fine. Barrels and breeches are not hardened so you should be good to go.

[newton]

Thanks guys. I did not get a chance at pictures last night. I hate when I say I can do something and I dont get it done. But I still want to show them so that someone can see what I did.

I am not so much worried about the barrel as I am the plug. But if the plug is not supposed to be some super duper metal, then I should be fine. I use a piece of steel that I am not sure what it went to. But it was threaded at one end already. I cut that part off and threaded it the same as my bore so they matched perfectly, but at least I know the steel was made to hold threads.

[pietro]

Oh, It'll fire/shoot alright - but that short a barrel (18-1/2") is waaaay too short to get a full burn/power of whatever charge you put in it.

While it might suffice as a fungun/plinker, for my $0.02, I wouldn't use it on any game animal.


.

[Lonegun1894]

I also agree that you should be able to trust it after proofing. The only change I'd make is that I would personally proof it with 4-5 shots, and not just one, but that is me being OCD about not catching a breechplug through the skull. Once that is done, I would just try for accuracy, instead of worrying about complete burn, because that rifle may easily disappoint you, or it could surprize you with its accuracy and may be perfectly good for at least close in hunting, say 50-75yds? I say play with it and see what it can do before saying it just wont work for hunting. I think a short carbine like that could be a neat and very handy combination in some hunting areas.

[newton]

I was thinking that it would be a really, really short gun. Something in the neighborhood of 50 yards. Maybe even a backup gun because it is very light from the fact that the stock is synthetic. I could make a sling for it an stick it on my back and never know its there.

My thoughts are that of using 50 grains with the 320 REAL. I did think about the fact that the powder has a lot less room to burn. If you go by the 11.5 grains per cubic inch formula then I am sitting at around 40 grains. However, this was geared more toward round balls so I am thinking a 320 grain conical will allow the barrel to burn more.

Then, add on if I used pyrodex p or fffg, then I could get the speed up a little more in the gun. But, its more of a fun gun.

However, if that light load will send the boolit flying at around 1200 or so I have no doubt it would punch a 1/2" hole through a critter.

I'm gonna play with it. I'll load it with 100 grains and shoot it from afar a few times. But like I said, it was just one of those things that I had forgotten about and figured I would ask. I doubt I'll get the time to mess with it anytime soon. Way to many other things going right now.

[newton]

It is steel, so I am good there. The threads are good, I used a match set for male and female. As far as the shoulder goes I am not sure. If I remember right, I tapped the barrel so that the threads were completely inside the barrel and not just the edge of the threads. But I did not bore a bigger hole and seat the plug up against it.

Once I screwed the plug in, I took the right size bit and drilled a hole for the flash channel barrel to be screwed in. This hole goes through the plug, but I do not remember how far back from the chamber. Then I tapped for the barrel and removed the plug. Then drilled a hole down the end of the plug to meet up with the flash channel. Then the flash channel is tapped, screwed in, and then cut out appropriately to direct the flame into the chamber.

Oh well. I guess this is all worthless without pictures. lol. I need to get those posted up.

I think that I will probably go with the round balls. I was just thinking that the conicals would give more 'punch' if I were to use it as a close range weapon. The rifling is 1:48" and it shot round balls good before.

[newton]

I got the pictures finally. I don't have enough room left to put them all on here so I did the photobucket thing.

One picture is of the flash channel itself. You can see the part that I beveled that faces the muzzle end. The next picture is of the breech plug itself. I measured it, turns out I only did a 3/4" long one. That is the length of the amount of threads anyways. The tang makes it longer.

The next one is the two mated together as they are when in the barrel. I know that its not the perfect thing for a chamber. My idea of a powder chamber would not look like this, but unless someone can see why it would not work or be safe I am sure that it will ignite just fine. I know that it would be a pain to clean also, but I do not see why I could not take it all down after a shooting session and clean the parts individually. Kind of like an inline.

The last picture is one looking into the barrel. You can see that there is no shoulder to speak of. But the plug does come to a positive stop. Once it was there I then drilled and tapped for the flash channel. The threads are as deep as the lands, but you can see where the grooves are the threads have just a tiny bit of flat spot on top. I still think they are pretty solid threads though.

I am pretty sure the barrel can handle the pressure, I did not do anything more than cut it shorter. And I would think that the way the plug and channel are mated together would say that they are not coming apart real easy either. I'll pour some powder in her this weekend I think. Get a long string, and tie her down tight. I wish I had more confidence in myself.

[newton]

Well, I guess the photobucket thing works after all on here. Learn something new every day.

[newton]

Oh, all the gunk you see is some teflon thread tape I used to wrap the threads when I put it all together. I figured it would be a while before I messed with it and wanted it to be protected. Looks like I was right. I also oiled it so I think the two interacted. Needless to say I will need to do some cleaning.

One thing to add is I noticed that my threads are a lot coarser and deeper than the threads for the breech plug on my inline. I found that interesting.

[KCSO]

Since I do restoration on originals I see a lot of the old guns apart and what you have done will make you a safe shooter. On most of the old guns the lengthe of thread on the breech is about equall to the diameter of the threads down to about 45 caliber or so. Average thread on the old ones is about 18 to an inch and some more course.

[newton]

Since I do restoration on originals I see a lot of the old guns apart and what you have done will make you a safe shooter. On most of the old guns the lengthe of thread on the breech is about equall to the diameter of the threads down to about 45 caliber or so. Average thread on the old ones is about 18 to an inch and some more course.

Thanks for looking. I am sure if I had it to do over I would have done a little better job with my machining skills. It would be real nice to have a lathe. If I remember right I did not want to go too big on my plug because I figured it would weaken the barrel. I also figured seeing how the barrel plug locks up to the tang then there is not much room for it to go.

I think I will do 5 or 6 shots with 100 grains of RS and the REAL's for testing. I figure after that then it should handle 50-60 grains of P and a round ball or a REAL if I feel the need. I think I am going to stick with Pyrodex because of its tendency to not be as explosive as black powder.

Still would love to hear more comments from other though. Never can get enough feedback on this sort of thing.

[fouronesix]

I think I am going to stick with Pyrodex because of its tendency to not be as explosive as black powder.

Somehow a sentence was dropped from my original response- it should have read---

Not exactly about comparing real BP to other subs -- but, I agree with newton in that caution is the best way to approach this. And, I believe excess650 has it right. Also, I believe you'll be fine shooting reasonable charges in your rebuild.

Black powder is easier to ignite than Pyrodex. BUT, Pyrodex can be as corrosive if not more corrosive than black powder. Pyrodex leaves harder fouling than black powder especially in dry conditions. And, Pyrodex can produce higher pressures than black powder- when loaded to equivalent levels.

Usually, real black powder is the better choice for ML shooting. (that statement is not meant to stir up the substitute BP hornets- simply because it has nothing to do with whether or not one can easily get real BP... two separate issues)

Just yesterday I was talking to an old time, local traditional ML shooter and he flatly stated he much prefers Pyrodex to real BP. I asked why. He said because when he started ML shooting (probably thought I was a newb) he used real BP and it took him close to two hours to clean his shooter after using real BP and at least 20 patches and way too much work. He said since he switched to Pyrodex-- cleaning was a breeze, using only about 3 patches. I just nodded in stupified silence. I was in no mood to argue or disagree with an "obviously" more experienced shooter (at least that was the way he was talking plus he was a tad older than I- and we're both a little 'long in the tooth'). Odd thing, I didn't even reply and pass along what I THOUGHT was the common knowledge of cleaning real BP- not much work of about 20 minutes, 3 patches and a little warm soapy water plus a final oiled patch. Still scratching my head over that conversation!!
Oh well.

[Boerrancher]

I think you will be more than fine. All it has to do is hold 36,000 psi. (the max pressure that any amount of the holy black will produce) Pyrodex and the other subs I have no idea. I would proof it though with at least a 100 grains of 3fg and a conical or dbl patched round ball. Looking at your set up though I don't think you will have any issues and there is probably no need to proof it other than for your own piece of mind. If it were mine, I would just shoot it with out proofing.

Best wishes

Joe

[splashout101]

Talk about proofing, My Parker Hale Enfields were proofed with 7 drams of black powder using a 724 grain bullet at the Birmingham proof house. I would not like to shoulder fire that load.

A service load is 3.5 drams and a 536 grain bullet.