RotoMetals2Reloading EverythingInline FabricationMidSouth Shooters Supply
Titan ReloadingLoad DataRepackboxLee Precision
Wideners
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 48

Thread: .358 ar from .223 brass?? POSSIBLE??

  1. #1
    Boolit Man mr.jake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Gaston County, NC
    Posts
    78

    Lightbulb .358 ar from .223 brass?? POSSIBLE??

    Why doesnt someone make this? would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit? then make an ar upper for it? Brass would be pretty cheap, and you would have balistics similar to a rossi 92 in .357. This idea has probably been thought of but it just dawned on me after reading about the .300 black out. The reasons i would have the .358 over the .300 blackout are: not having to lube cases, i have lots of .358 molds, case life would probablly be longer than the .300 black formed cases and 9mm suppresors are cheaper. What do you guys think?
    "If you have a nick-nack with a nick in it we'll knock the nick out of your nack with Brighto!" -Larry Fine

    Casting on dry land...

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Moonie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Thomasville North Carolina
    Posts
    4,695
    Well for one thing the shoulder diameter of a .223 is .354...

  3. #3
    Boolit Master HORNET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South of Vandalia, Michigan
    Posts
    1,397
    Didn't the Eastern Block countries have a 9x39 for suppressed use?
    Rick
    ____________________________
    If it looks plumbous, I'll probably try making bullets out of it. Dean Grennell

  4. #4
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,679
    Yeah, a 9mm on steroids. Check these various 9mm cases out with the 223 cases. 38 Super? ... felix
    felix

  5. #5
    Boolit Master frnkeore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central point, OR
    Posts
    1,331
    I don't think it will be as easy as your thinking. You'll have to keep the case length real close as that's how it will have to headspace and you'll have to neck turn because of the case taper. You'll also have very little case taper to help with the extraction that auto loaders need. Plus it sounds like a lot of work to me.

    Frank

  6. #6
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    SW Pa.
    Posts
    2,928
    A 6.8 case necked up would be interesting though.I believe theres already a 35 cal on the x39mm/ grendel case that will get you 35 rem vel.
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    3,129
    I was wondering if the .223 case could sub for at the 357Max.

    as long as it was trimmed right, and inserted so the extractor grabbed the groove, it SHOULD work


    I did happen into some Max brass so won't need to pursue this with any great fervor but it is still something I'd like to know.
    I am ONLY responsible for what I Say!
    I am NOT responsible for what You THINK I Said!
    ====
    If numbers killed I'd hunt with a Calculator!

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    19
    "would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit?"
    yes, but as stated, case length would determine headspace. If you want a .357 Maximum equal it would be better to modify Maximum brass and use a semi rimmed Max case.
    I've been fiddling around with this Idea for a long time. I'd like to try the .358 gremlin (.358 bullet in a 7.62x39 Russian case) but have come to the conclusion that the .458 SOCOM necked down to .358 might be the way to go. I have also looked at necking down the .450 Bushmaster, and a shortened .444 Marlin with a rebated rim.
    While any of the above are .35 Remington equals or better, none are really worth the extra expense and trouble involved.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    19
    There is a .338 Spectre wildcat that you may want to look at, basically a shortened .223 necked to .338.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master hicard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Northern Kalifornia
    Posts
    1,406
    Check out the 358 Gremlin cartridge.

    http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html
    This country has gone to hell but now there is hope for us.

  11. #11
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    headspacing and feeding are the issues you have to overcome.
    if you had a mag that would single feed from the center it would work great.
    the gremlin would be the best bet and i would go with a 8mm or 338 anyway.
    i tried to work a 250 gr 358 boolit in a cut off 204 case some time back and couldn't get a builder to say anyway it would work.
    it would feed fine from a standard 223 mag, but not headspace very well because it lost all of it's taper and the case mouth was so thin.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    339

    how different from .30 carbine-like round?

    If it headspaced on the case mouth like the .45ACP or the .30 carbine, how bizzare would it really be?

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Valley of the SUNs, AZ
    Posts
    9,254
    9mm Win Mag reinvented ? .357 magnum for auto loaders.

    http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...r%20Magnum.pdf

    9mm Win Mag case length 1.160 - 1.170 max - (223 case is 1.76" (45mm)) - (357 maximum is Case length 1.605 in (40.8 mm))

    So if you straightened out 223 to 9mm and trimed to 1.605 you'd have created 9mm Maximum, how it would feed and function is yet to be determined.

    or just buy 9mm Win Mag brass from starline and live with it.

    https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-...Win-Mag-Brass/

    and yes 9x39 is a russian military round used in suppressed rifles



    back to the original questions
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.jake View Post
    Why doesnt someone make this?
    There are wildcats made off 223 but not in 35 caliber due to head space issues.
    Would it be possible to trim down a .223 brass and expand it to take a 358 boolit?
    Yes
    Then make an ar upper for it?
    Probably but you have to consider feeding from magazine up into the chamber.
    Brass would be pretty cheap, and you would have balistics similar to a rossi 92 in .357.
    Look up Jeff Coopers 9mm conversion of 223 brass for 1911's or Dillon 9x25 - Very Hot loadings
    This idea has probably been thought of but it just dawned on me after reading about the .300 black out.
    The reasons i would have the .358 over the .300 blackout are: not having to lube cases, i have lots of .358 molds, case life would probablly be longer than the .300 black formed cases and 9mm suppresors are cheaper.
    What do you guys think?
    You can use the 9mm Suppressor with 300 blackout subsonic loads - not so sure with your 9mm uber magnum
    Last edited by Artful; 09-14-2012 at 09:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    Posts
    2,085
    Ya, I always thought that taking the .223 out straight-walled and making a '35 carbine' would be cool. Or maybe call it .357 automag or something. I imagine the 300 AAC will be more popular so the idea may never get traction. Frank

  15. #15
    Boolit Master greywuuf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    528
    .338 spectre is made from ,10 mm MAGNUM, brass, uhm, there is a guy whose name escapes me (used to do business at ar15barrels.com)
    That has a video of feeding a mag full of cut off .223 brass (inside expanded and inside neck reammed) loaded with 200 grain jacketed bullets through an AR (by hand with the charging handle)

    I have a reamer and a barrel, was always going to put together an upper, but realized that I really hate that much brass forming. (Especially the reaming part...the expanding and forming was fine)

    Also cartridges of the world has a .357 max based on the .223 brass...Just a rimless max...it made sense for something out another.....maybe it came out off Australia, and max brass was hard to get?

    Something like that.


    All that being said...I did make 5 pieces of MAGNUM brass and fire it in my black hawk....had to rig a make diff moon clip.....but it does work, just not worth the effort IMO.


    homeland defense begins at home.

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    19
    Greywuuf is correct, My mistake typing gets faster than the brain sometimes. The.338 Straight is the cartridge I was refering to in an earlier post when I refered to the .338 Spectre, sorry for any confusion.
    I've heard of the rimless Max but for some reason never associated it with the AR, probably due to the thinness of the brass at the neck (hard to headspace). I still believe that a semi-rimmed design like the .30 Carbine, (except starting with .357 Max brass) would solve any difficulties with headspacing. However, this approach requires spinning each case and I don't like to put that much time and trouble into brass.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    scb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,199
    Quote Originally Posted by RU shooter View Post
    A 6.8 case necked up would be interesting though.
    It was discussed here. Unfortunately it didn't go anywhere.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90803 (about page 14 or 15)

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...&postcount=555

    There's another member that makes what he calls a 357 BFG - Herrett Short 1.625"



    I've tried contacting him but he doesn't return e-mails.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
    Benjamin Franklin

    Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.
    James Madison



  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Missouri Ozarks
    Posts
    1,240
    It has been done. the .357 Rimless Magnum but to function through SA rifles the cartridge need to be kept to about 2.00 inches and the case needs to be kept very short about same as .357 Magnum but it runs at higher pressures. It will push a 180 gr. spitzer at about 2,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel, about the same as a 57 Maximum.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    SW Idaho
    Posts
    2,264
    I tried this about twenty years ago. It headspaces on the case mouth, like a 9mm. Trimming cases is absolutely critical. In the end, it proved problematic, and not worth the trouble. I piddled around with some strange case designs in the early to mid-nineties. Ask me about my 308 ZTSS sometime.

    Rich

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Got-R-Did's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    368
    How about just resurrecting the .351 S.L. and use a rimless case this time.
    Got-R-Did.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check